Speaking in Tongues – The real story 264


As proof that ‘God’ has poured out his spirit, there is a manifestation known as “Speaking in Tongues”. Those seeing it for the first time sometimes find it to be a bit creepy or bizarre, especially if they don’t know what is going on. It usually happens during times of open prayer within Pentecostal churches or other similar types of groups with a Charismatic leaning. Sometimes one individual will appear to loudly break out into a prayer or song in what sounds like a foreign language, but not any language ever heard before. There is also a variation in which the entire group will all do this together; except of course for those not in the know or not ‘gifted’ yet.

Normally when considering religion, concepts such as “spirit” are vague, immeasurable and meaningless, but here is something solid that we can actually measure and determine if there is anything significant happening. Over the years there has been a lot of serious independent scientific research of this specific practise. One very good example is the long and detailed study carried out back in the early 1970’s by the famous Professor of Linguistics, William J Samarin. From all around the world he gathered and recorded many samples of “Speaking in Tongues”. All this data was then put through an extensive analysis over a period of five years. His conclusions were as follows:

  • While speaking in tongues does appear at first to resemble human language, that was only on the surface.
  • The actual stream of speech was not organised and there was no existing relationship between units of speech and concepts.
  • The speakers might believe it to be a real language, but it was totally meaningless

[Samarin, William J. (1972). Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism. New York: Macmillan]

Note that this is not just a blog opinion, its peer reviewed research carried out over many years by a highly qualified open-minded linguist. Speaking-in-tongues is nothing but empty babbling by devoted believers who have deluded themselves into thinking it to be a sign of the Holy Spirit. I should know; I used to be a practitioner myself at one time and truly did believe in the reality of it, but realise now that I was motivated by my desire to blend in and was only fooling myself.

If you dig a bit deeper and consider the history of it all, you find that the modern practise as we see it today is not all that old, it dates back to about 1906 in Los Angeles. Having first started in a revival there, it has since then spread in a viral like manner both geographically around the globe, and also chronologically on to each successive generation. Modern practitioners claim that what they are doing is exactly the same as the experience described within the Book of Acts (2:1-13), however one huge discrepancy is that the story within Book of Acts describes recognised languages from all around the Roman Empire being spoken. In stark contrast, nobody understands the modern mindless babbling.

What is even more fascinating is that the modern manifestation is a lot more widespread then most might appreciate. Other non-Christian religious groups also practise it. Felicitas Goodman, a Hungarian anthropologist compared it with recordings of rituals from Japan, Indonesia, Africa and Borneo and concluded that there was no distinction, it truly is universal and quite easily crosses religious divides. [Goodman, Felicitas D. (1972). Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.]

Finally, just to prove the point that there is no sky-magic involved and that this is just a learned behaviour, there was a study carried out with a group of 60 non-believing undergraduates. 20% could accomplish it after listening to only a 60 second sample and about 70% could succeed with some moderate training. [Spanos, Nicholas P.; Cross, Wendy P.; Lepage, Mark; Coristine, Marjorie (February 1986). “Glossolalia as learned behavior: An experimental demonstration”. Journal of Abnormal Psychology 95]

The Bible states in 1 Cor 14.22 that “tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not”. Well, this non-believer hasnow weighed and measured it all and found it to be mindless babbling. The only sign that this gives is that the believers who practise this are delusional. (I include my past self in that last sentence).

If you are still a believer, and are starting to have doubts, then you might be interested in chatting with me to understand why I am not longer a believer (I promise a friendly discussion) – contact me at skeptic [at] skeptical-science.com (forgive the cryptic email, its to avoid the bots auto- scraping the email address and spamming me)

To those who still believe and have reached here with the, “But I know its real” thought still intact; well, that’s exactly how I felt. What you have to realise is that you are in the grip of a very powerful psychological trick. Before you move on, pause and carefully consider what you have read; I’m not presenting you with an alternative opinion, but rather with hard solid scientific proof that it is not real.


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264 thoughts on “Speaking in Tongues – The real story

  • Kira Phillips

    Scripture goes further to say, “So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

    Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that your are mad?

    But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

    What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is not interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.”

    – (1 Corinthians 14:22-28)

    Very briefly, I went to my church for prayer for my broken heart as being mistreated as a step-daughter by my step-father. I didn’t tell the three people that prayed for me what was wrong. In fact, they saw me praying alone as I silently entertained false narratives of my situation in my head leading me to spiral down in a negative, emotional pit hoping that I could somehow get over it. Within moments, I heard them pray in tongues (I had no idea what they were saying and it didn’t make sense to me nor was it helping me), but then one woman translated and said that I was a broken-hearted step-daughter and that God wanted to show me His Fatherly love and replace the orphan spirit with His. I’ve never cried so hard at that moment in a church before.

    It wasn’t the fact that they knew what my main issue was that had me crying (thought, as a believer that was a miraculous sign to me), but the fact that they allowed themselves to be a working vessel for God, I felt and heard God’s voice through them. His love touched me and I am thankful to this day that they allowed Him to work through them and do His will.

    I hope this helps with your exegesis and hermeneutics claims considering this topic. It’s best to read the content around the verse to get a better understanding of its context and I would encourage you to keep asking questions.
    If you’re looking for evidence of speaking in tongues being more than babbling nonsense, consider it’s main purpose: healing and deliverance.

  • Gordon Swanepoel

    You might be interested in my new book, The Case Against Tongues: Weighing Up the Evidence. It’s free on Smashwords and other online book stores.

  • Alekcey Valente

    Quite interesting. I was a christian for a long time in my life and started to doubt a lot, especially when I saw the rebuttals of a lot of christian apologist videos, scientific explanations for the “unexplainable” and the theory of evolution. This is a really good refutation, today I heard a story from a friend of mine, who is a catholic, that his father and him were in the church and saw a girl that spoke in tongues, precisely in aramaic and his father studied aramaic for a long time in his life(so that´s how he recognised the language) and he said that the girl was 8 years old and she never knew what was aramaic nor her parents and she wasn´t used to access the internet; and so I had to research and see it, and that´s when I found your article, thanks! Now, I would like your help with these doubts I currently have. I was really confused today because of this story but I´m gradually becoming more skeptical. For example, I can´t see evil in masturbating or being gay(I´m not, by the way), like… why would God bother, you know? Anyways… THX A LOT! And kepp it up! Really apreciate it. Oh , by the way, support HitNail youtube channel, it was mostly because of his refutation to a young earth creationist that I became an atheist(or almost, I still have some doubts, so I´m for now an agnostic)

    • Kavik

      @Alekcey

      An interesting story –

      To restate, just for the record, I am not an atheist nor a so-called “cessationist” (never heard of the term until just this year). I’m not discouraging the practice of tongues, just the understanding of what it is. What Christian practitioners claim it is, it simply is not.

      To your point –

      This story is one version of many that are told. It’s sort of attained “urban legend” status in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles. The basic story line goes like this: in a gathering (church service, tent meeting, etc., etc.) some person starts speaking in tongues and there just happens to be this one person in the crowd to recognizes it as a real language and asks the speaker or tells the speaker about it and, of course, the speaker has no clue and has never heard or been exposed to the language they were supposedly speaking.

      Coincidentally, the language almost *always* seems to be Aramaic and there’s *always* someone in the crowd who just happens to either speak it, or studied it, etc.and recognizes it as such. In most versions of the story, the person that recognizes it is a Jewish person (i.e. practicing Jew) to just happens to recognize the language. This begs a slew of questions, the least of which is why a practicing Jew would be attending a Pentecostal?charismatic service in the first place, Was it Aramaic, or did it just ‘sound’ like Aramaic. What languages in any form or no matter how infrequent was this girl exposed to? Typically glossolalia only contains those sounds found in a speaker’s own native language. If that language is English, Aramaic contains several sounds not found in English.

      I don’t mean to cast doubts. While in theory, yes, it’s a possibility, cases like this (which seem to be rather common in Pentecostal?charismatic circles) are never backed up by any solid proof and amounts to, unfortunately, just hearsay. It would be a relatively simple thing to prove either way. It’s too bad as a solid case would be fantastic to study and could theoretically lay some groundwork for further study!

  • Stacy

    As a young girl, I prayed every night for the gift of tongues. Eventually crying myself to sleep because God had forsaken me took its place. Now I am a grown woman, no-longer-Southern-Pentecostal, practicing Buddhist. I thought you might want to read about studies done more recently than almost 50 years ago. While I have many issues with certain conclusions, the science is fascinating and for me, was very surprising. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html

    • Kavik

      Yeah, this is the well-known study done by the Univ. of Pen. I’ve read it; the results are very inconclusive and could be skewed to support either argument. I would argue that the language producing centers of the brain are not all that engaged in the production of glossolalia or “speaking in tongues”, simply because it’s not language; it’s random free vocalization. You don’t have to think about what you’re doing like language, you just do it. A bit like humming a random made-up tune; you don’t think about what you’re humming/singing, you just do it.

  • Debbie

    Yes it is meaningless to those who hear and cannot translate, just as the Bible state. Fact 1. It is not unknown to God, just as the Bible states. . Fact 2. So ask God if He understands tongues and you can confirm this.

    • Kavik

      Biblical “tongues” are, in fact, real languages – on Pentecost, Aramaic and Greek, and in Corinth various languages due to the city being a multicultural port city on two seas. So, in that respect, even if other people could not understand the (real) language used by the speaker, God certainly could. Modern ‘tongues’/glossolalia is not real language – glossolalia/tongues mimics language, but is just a facade of language. In and of itself it is meaningless – simply random free vocalization.

      • Gordon Swanepoel

        You might be interested in my new book, The Case Against Tongues: Weighing Up the Evidence. It’s free on Smashwords and other online book stores. I’m a new author and looking for people who might be interested in this topic. If you do read it, I’d love to hear what you think.

  • John

    If you’ll study this out… what happened at Pentecost was the voice of many people or waters. They heard the message in the language of those that spoke, but understood it in their own native tongue. I agree with you 100% that what is going on now is foolishness… it is witchcraft. Another disagreement I have with that letter (Acts) is that they do one thing but give reference to Joel of the old testament which mentions nothing of tongues.

    • Kavik

      See my posts of 18. May re tongues at Pentecost – simply Aramaic and Greek spoken by the Apostles instead of the more culturally correct (and expected ) Hebrew. Apostles spoke both Greek and Aramaic.

    • Robert Ratajczak

      John what you wrote is short but excellent and to the point. You are a clear and excellent thinker/teacher for that reason we hope you Skype, we want to meet you and talk to you face to face. We live in Argentina at the tip of South America. But we can meet and converse for FREE using Skype. Our Skype address is: patagoniaratajczaks

    • Gordon Swanepoel

      You might be interested in my new book, The Case Against Tongues: Weighing Up the Evidence. It’s free on Smashwords and other online book stores. I’m a new author and looking for people who might be interested in this topic. If you do read it, I’d love to hear what you think.

  • Michelle bradley

    Hello my name is michelle .my mom used to try to make me speak in toungs .not for me .i also think its from the devil .and she is crazy .judjumental.greedy unforgiving but thinks she is so rightouss .and says the devil made her that way…. I aak God to hell me forgive her. And try to move forwatd and have A relationship .it’s so hard

    • Pierre

      Hello Michelle. Your mom can not make you speak in tongues. It is a gift from the Holy Spirit as is healing, prophesy and many others. The Holy Spirit give them to whom He wants and sometimes for certain occasions. As you can see from my and Mario’s discussions there are many different views regarding the Gifts of the Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit.
      Forgiveness is unfortunately totally up to us but the Holy Spirit will assist you since He lives in born again believers.

      My daughter have a favourite saying when somebody hurts her or a friends feelings….’build a bridge and get over it’. In my opinion that is pretty much how forgiveness works. We live in a broken world with broken people and we will get people that hurt, disappoint, backstab and do numerous other things to us as long as we live this life. We will also do this to others even unintentionally. I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit will assist you in forgiving her but also pray for her for understanding of what she is doing wrong to upset and offend you.

      You can also explain to your mom that a born again christian is suppose to become more like Jesus the longer you are in a relationship with Him. You will always be sinfull and do sin but it should become less as the Holy Spirit helps you resist it. Idealy you should see an improvement yearly on what you use to do and what you do at the end of that year.

      Regards

      Pierre

    • Kavik

      I must respectfully disagree with Pierre with respect to tongues – unfortunately from what I have seen and from what I have read from various people, “tongues” can indeed be a forced experience. People put in a situation where they are more or less forced to speak something….anything, so long as it doesn’t sound like English (or whatever the person’s native language is). It seems in many cases to be peer pressure at it’s absolute worse case scenario. It sounds like you have perhaps unfortunately undergone a similar situation.

      • Pierre

        Hallo Kavik. I have to agree with you. Huge damage is unfortunately done by religious people making speaking in tongues a proof of the Holy Spirit’s infilling and trying to make other christians speak in tongues. I was trying to say that to Michelle” Your mom can not make you speak in tongues”. I see speaking in tongues as one of the many gifts of the Holy Spirit that He gives to who He wants when and as He wants. Not everyone gets the same gifts or all of them.

        I hope I explained it better.

        Regards

        Pierre

  • Pierre

    Hallo Mario. I will be out of town till 19 June. We can chat again when I am back.

    Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

    These signs shall accompany THOSE WHO BELIEVE….. in my book that means all True christians…

    Regards

    Pierre

    • mario

      Enjoy your time out.

      Firstly my correction there is I believe 600 million “Christians” that speak in tongue.

      1) Firstly the old manuscripts have not got Mark 16: 9-20. Interesting but even so if it is correct lets look at verse 13 they did not believe, verse 14 Jesus rebuked them for not believing them that told them, verse 15 Jesus said to them .. verse 17 and these signs will accompany those that believe… Now who were the unbelievers the Apostles themselves as they were even rebuked by Jesus. Verse 7 interesting tell the disciples and Peter, why and Peter he is the one that denied Jesus 3 times.

      2) If everyone did all the above signs then there would be telling the difference between the apostles and ordinary people.2 Corinthians 12:12 ….. demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIRACLES.

      3) So if these signs are for today WHY do the tongue speaking people NOT also heal people ? If it is for today then that person should have able to do all what the signs, not just the easiest one to counterfeit.

      So if verse were not in the bible as it was not in the earliest translations, would one still think that they can do these signs? even after the word says they will cease? If they did not cease when will the cease ?

      Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:” If everyone could do the signs miracles and wonders WOULD IT MEAN ANYTHING ? NO , it had be something special.

      Acts 2:43, “Fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles [not through the Christians in general].”
      Acts 5:12, “Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles [not by the hands of all the Christians].”
      Acts 14:3, “So they [Paul and Barnabas] remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”
      Acts 15:12, “And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles [as though this were something remarkable, not something being done daily by average Christians].”

      So it looks like Luke intends for us to see signs and wonders in the book of Acts as having a special role in the ministry of the apostles. This suggests that neither then nor today were signs and wonders intended to be a normal part of church ministry or evangelism. They were intended to vindicate the authority of the APOSTLES AND JESUS.

      • Pierre

        Hallo Mario.

        Here is another example of my point:
        1 Corinthians 12:12-31…12 Brothers and sisters, I want you to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. 2 You know that at one time you were unbelievers. You were somehow drawn away to worship statues of gods that couldn’t even speak. 3 So I want you to know that no one who is speaking with the help of God’s Spirit says, “May Jesus be cursed.” And without the help of the Holy Spirit no one can say, “Jesus is Lord.”

        4 There are different kinds of gifts. But they are all given to believers by the same Spirit. 5 There are different ways to serve. But they all come from the same Lord. 6 There are different ways the Spirit works. But the same God is working in all these ways and in all people.

        7 The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all. 8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.

        12 There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body. It is the same with Christ. 13 We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free people. We were all given the same Spirit to drink. 14 So the body is not made up of just one part. It has many parts.

        15 Suppose the foot says, “I am not a hand. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 16 And suppose the ear says, “I am not an eye. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, how could it hear? If the whole body were an ear, how could it smell? 18 God has placed each part in the body just as he wanted it to be. 19 If all the parts were the same, how could there be a body? 20 As it is, there are many parts. But there is only one body.

        21 The eye can’t say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 In fact, it is just the opposite. The parts of the body that seem to be weaker are the ones we can’t do without. 23 The parts that we think are less important we treat with special honor. The private parts aren’t shown. But they are treated with special care. 24 The parts that can be shown don’t need special care. But God has put together all the parts of the body. And he has given more honor to the parts that didn’t have any. 25 In that way, the parts of the body will not take sides. All of them will take care of one another. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it. If one part is honored, every part shares in its joy.

        27 You are the body of Christ. Each one of you is a part of it. 28 First, God has placed apostles in the church. Second, he has placed prophets in the church. Third, he has placed teachers in the church. Then he has given to the church miracles and gifts of healing. He also has given the gift of helping others and the gift of guiding the church. God also has given the gift of speaking in different kinds of languages. 29 Is everyone an apostle? Is everyone a prophet? Is everyone a teacher? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in languages they had not known before? Do all explain what is said in those languages? 31 But above all, you should want the more important gifts.

        I can keep giving you scripture that includes every believer in getting gifts, but different ones as the Holy Spirit deems necessary.

        Please give me 1 scripture that sais gifts are ONLY for prophets.

        Regards

        Pierre

      • Pierre

        Hallo Mario.

        As per your previous answer:

        1) Firstly the old manuscripts have not got Mark 16: 9-20. Interesting but even so if it is correct lets look at verse 13 they did not believe, verse 14 Jesus rebuked them for not believing them that told them, verse 15 Jesus said to them .. verse 17 and these signs will accompany those that believe… Now who were the unbelievers the Apostles themselves as they were even rebuked by Jesus. Verse 7 interesting tell the disciples and Peter, why and Peter he is the one that denied Jesus 3 times.

        2) If everyone did all the above signs then there would be telling the difference between the apostles and ordinary people.2 Corinthians 12:12 ….. demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIRACLES.

        3) So if these signs are for today WHY do the tongue speaking people NOT also heal people ? If it is for today then that person should have able to do all what the signs, not just the easiest one to counterfeit.

        So if verse were not in the bible as it was not in the earliest translations, would one still think that they can do these signs? even after the word says they will cease? If they did not cease when will the cease ?

        Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:” If everyone could do the signs miracles and wonders WOULD IT MEAN ANYTHING ? NO , it had be something special.

        Acts 2:43, “Fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles [not through the Christians in general].”
        Acts 5:12, “Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles [not by the hands of all the Christians].”
        Acts 14:3, “So they [Paul and Barnabas] remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”
        Acts 15:12, “And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles [as though this were something remarkable, not something being done daily by average Christians].”

        So it looks like Luke intends for us to see signs and wonders in the book of Acts as having a special role in the ministry of the apostles. This suggests that neither then nor today were signs and wonders intended to be a normal part of church ministry or evangelism. They were intended to vindicate the authority of the APOSTLES AND JESUS.

        You can not assume according to what 600 million christian’s do or don’t do what the Holy Spirit can or can not do. How many of those 600 million do you personally know and know form personal experience what they can and can not do?

        If you actually read my previous bible quote you will see that the Holy Spirit give to believers what, when and where He wants.

        And everything will cease – even this earth we live on. There will be no need for any spiritual gifts in heaven or the new earth.

        Regards Pierre

        • mario

          hi Pierre

          Please give me 1 scripture that sais gifts are ONLY for prophets.

          WE WERE TALKING ABOUT MARK 16. IF WE SAY IT IS FOR ALL BELIEVERS EVEN TODAY THEN WE HAVE A PROBLEM, DO YOU AND I HEAL AT WILL WITH THE SIGN GIFT OF HEALING?

          EXPLAINED BELOW, PLEASE SEE MARK 16:9-20 SUMMARY, IN SHORT IF IT IS STILL FOR EVERY BELIEVER TODAY, WHY BELIEVERS NOT HAVING THE GIFT OF SPEAKING IN NUMEROUS EARTHLY LANGAUGES AND HEALING PEOPLE INSTANTLY ?

          You can not assume according to what 600 million christian’s do or don’t do what the Holy Spirit can or can not do. How many of those 600 million do you personally know and know form personal experience what they can and can not do?

          MARK 16: SAYS ALL THAT BELIEVE CAN DO ALL THESE THINGS. SO HAVE THE 600 MILION CHRISTIANS BELIEVERS THESE GIFTS, IF NOT ARE THEY “UNBELIEVERS” ? AS THEY DO NOT HAVE THE GIFT.

          I TRIED TO FIND HOW MANY CHRISTIANS SPEAK IN TONGUES AND AN ARTICLE SAID I QUOTE “Today, there are more than 600 million charismatic-Pentecostal believers worldwide, the second-largest group of Christians after Catholics. Pentecostals and charismatic churches are by no means a small, fringe movement; on the contrary, they form the fastest-growing religious movement in the world. The gift of tongues is not reserved for a select few.”

          I AM NOT SAYING THAT WE KNOW WHO DO OR DO NOT, THE POINT I WAS MAKING WAS THAT YOU MENTIONED IN EARLIER COMMENT THAT SO MANY TONGUE SPEAKING CHRISTIANS CAN NOT BE WRONG. YOUR QUOTE ”You are saying that hundreds of thousands of Christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong”.

          SO I HAD MENTIONED 60 MILLION. SO I AM CORRECTING IT AS THERE ARE SO MANY MORE.

          If you actually read my previous bible quote you will see that the Holy Spirit give to believers what, when and where He wants.
          CORRECT MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS ALSO SAYS THE SAME. NOT ALL GET SPEAKING IN TONGUES (WHY THE CHURCHES PRAYING FOR PEOPLE TO RECEIVE TONGUES? IS IT NOT A GIFT GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT AS HE WILLS?) NOT ALL GET THE SAME GIFT. NOT EVERYONE IS THE FOOT, OR EYE,OR NECK ECT.

          And everything will cease – even this earth we live on. There will be no need for any spiritual gifts in heaven or the new earth.

          YES EVERY THING MAY CEASE BUT THERE ARE THINGS THAT CEASE IN STAGES. GOOD EXAMPLE IS US GETTING OLDER AND DYING. JESUS GENERATION HAS CEASED. SO WHEN WE READ THAT THE SIGN GIFTS OF TONGUES, PROPHECY AND KNOWLEDGE WILL COME TO AN END ? WHAT REMAINED ? FAITH HOPE LOVE. SO AFTER THESE WHAT REMAINS L O V E WHICH REMAINS FOREVER.

          Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

          These signs shall accompany THOSE WHO BELIEVE….. in my book that means all True christians… You can not assume according to what 600 million christian’s do or don’t do what the Holy Spirit can or can not do. How many of those 600 million do you personally know and know form personal experience what they can and can not do?

          YOU SAID THAT THESE SIGNS ARE FOR EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES, SO THEN THESE SIGNS SHOULD ACCOMPANY ALL WHO BELIEVES IN THE GOSPAL ? IF WE ARE OUT PREACHING THE GOSPAL THESE SIGNS SHOULD BE PRESENT. ARE YOU AS A TONGUE SPEAKER EXPERIENCING THESE GIFTS ?
          ARE YOU HEALING THE SICK WITH IMMEDIATEL RESULTS OR ANYONE IN YOUR CHURCH?

          CAN A SICK BROTHER IN HOSPITAL JUST CALL A GIFTED BROTHER AND HE WILL WALK OUT OF THE HOSPITAL IMMEDIATLY? WHAT A TESTOMONEY FOR THE WORLD TO SEE, BELIEVERS WALKING OUT OF THEIR SICK BEDS AND HOSPITALS.

          IS IT NOT AMASING THAT THROUGH THE LAST 2000 YEARS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONVERTED BELIEVING THE WORD OF GOD, AND NON OF THESE SIGNS SEEM TO HAVE APPEARED OR FOLLOWED THEM ?

          IF THE VERSES ARE CORRECT TO YOUR INTERPRETATION, SHOULD THESE SIGNS NOT BE EVERYWHERE?

          DO THE “BORN AGAIN” BELIEVERS IN YOUR FELLOWSHIP HAVE THESE SIGN GIFTS ? DO YOU HAVE THE SIGN GIFTS ? ARE ALL BEING HEALED AROUND YOU, ARE YOU ALL SPEAKING IN NEW TONGUE(S) MANY DIFFERENT EARTHLY LANGUAGES, ARE YOU CASTING OUT DEMONS ECT.ECT.

          THESE VERSES IN MARK 16:9-20 TO ME ARE NOT ORIGIONAL, THEY SHOULD NOT BE THERE. EVEN IF THEY ARE THERE AND IF YOU READ MY LAST COMMENTS THE “UNBELIEVERS” WERE THE APOSTLES. JESUS SAID TO THEM ” THOSE WHO BELIEVE” REFERING TO HIS APOSTLES not all believers. THEY CERTAINLY HAD THE SIGN GIFTS.

          If you actually read my previous bible quote you will see that the Holy Spirit give to believers what, when and where He wants.
          And everything will cease – even this earth we live on. There will be no need for any spiritual gifts in heaven or the new earth

          WHY WAS PAUL MINISTRY OF HEALING SO POWERFUL, THEN TOWARDS THE END OF HIS MINISTRY HE COULD NOT HEAL HIMSELF, TIMOTHY, TROPHIMUS AND SO FORTH. INTERESTING WHERE THE GIFTS FADING AWAY ?

          TOTALLY AGREE YES THE HOLY SPIRIT DID GIVE THE SIGN GIFTS TO WHOM HE PLEASED. BUT AS WE READ THURTHER WHEN PAUL WAS WRITING CORINTHIANS HE ONLY HAD PART KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY. THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKING IN PAUL, HE WROTE THE OTHER BOOKS OF THE BIBLE AFTER CORITHIANS HE WAS GIVEN NEW PROPHECY AND FORESIGHT. WE SEE FROM 2 CORINTHIANS AND HEBREWS THE SIGN GIFTS WERE ALREADY WRITTEN IN PAST TENSE.

          AS WE READ IN CORITHIANS PAUL SAID WE ARE LIKE BABIES, WE SEE IN THE GLASS DIMLY, BUT AS HE WROTE THE OTHER BOOKS MORE REVELATION WAS REVEALED. THIS GOT TO THE STAGE WHERE IN REVELATION SAYS THAT WE ARE NOW FULLY EQUIPED, WE ARE NOW MATURE, WE CAN SEE CLEARLY AS THE SCRIPTURE NOW FULLY FULFILLED “IT THE PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY”. WE ARE NOW NOT THROWN AROUND AS WHEN WE WERE BABYS AS WE HAVE ALL KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY.

          THAT’S WHY THE BIBLE IS FOR CORRECTION, REPROOF AND NOTHING CAN BE ADDED OR TAKEN AWAY. SO WHEN REVELATION WAS WRITTEN WE HAVE ANOTHER THING THAT HAS CEASED, THE CONTINUAL WRITING OF THE WORD. WE ALSO KNOW THE OLD TESTAMENT SACRIFIES CAME TO AN END WHEN THE TEMPLE WAS DISTROYED.

          THINGS DO NOT COME TO AN END ONLY WHEN JESUS RETURNS. THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT ARE CEASING EVERYDAY.

          JUST REFERING TO MARK 16. IF WE ACCEPT IT AS TRUTH THEN WE SHOULD GET CONTEXT
          ” The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.” 2 Corinthians 12:12

          ” how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.” Hebrews 2:3-4.

          WERE NOT THESE SIGN GIFTS FOR CONFIRMATION, AUTHENTICATION AND AFFIRMATION ?
          “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know ” Acts 2:22

          THIS WAS PROOF THAT THE ONE PERFORMING THE MIRACLES SPOKE FROM GOD.

          THERE ARE NUMEROUS SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THESE SIGN GIFTS WERE TEMPORARY ?
          ” how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it WAS CONFIRMED to us by those who heard, Hebrews 2:3

          AS MENTIONED BEFORE THE MAIN VERB IS PAST TENSE “WAS CONFIRMED”, SIGNS WONDERS AND MIRACLES WERE ALREADY REFERRED TO IN THE PAST TENSE AT THE TIME OF WRITING HEBREWS.

          AS MENTIONED IN MY PREVIOUS REPLY. IN 1 AND 2 CORINTHIANS TONGUES, KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY WOULD CEASE. LEAVING ONLY FAITH. HOPE. AND LOVE. WE KNOW FAITH AND HOPE WILL CEASE AT JESUS RETURN BUT LOVE LASTS FOREVER.

          Just like the manna ceased when Israel entered the land of promise after forty years of transition, so spiritual gifts ended ? If not why do you and I not heal people ?

          NOT LIKE TODAY SOME GO TO A CRUSADE AND GO TO THE FRONT FOR HEALING ” . some say that they do not have enough faith some say MAYBE THEY WILL BE HEALED OR NOT “.

          I WATCHED A WORLD WIDE PROPHET HEALER, PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD GO TO NIGERIA FOR THEIR HEALING. I KNOW MY MOM FRIEND WHO TOOK HIS WIFE THERE 3 TIMES AND SHE WAS NOT HEALED FROM CANCER. LOTS OF RUGBY PLAYERS HAVE BEEN THERE AND NOT HEALED. WHAT WAS AMASING FOR ME IN THE SERVICE; THE PASTOR HANDED OUT NUMEROUS FREE WHEEL CHAIRS FOR THE SICK. EVERYONE GOES THERE FOR HEALING BUT ARE GIVEN WHEEL CHAIRS?

          TO CONCLUDE IF MARK 16 AND THE SIGN GIFTS LIKE TONGUES WERE FOR ONE TO EDIFY THEMSELVES AND SPEAK TO GOD PRIVATELY AND HEAL.

          AFTER THE BOOKS OF THE CORINTHIANS WHY IS TONGUES NOT MENTIONED AS A GIFT OF THE SPIRIT ?

          WHY DO THE REQUIREMNTS OF PASTORS AND DECEANS NOT REQUIRE TONGUES AND HEALINGS? WHY IS THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR PASTORS AND DEACONS ? DO THEY NOT NEED THESE SIGN GIFTS MORE THAN THE CONGREGATION ? 1 TIM 3.

          IF YOU ARE READING THIS AFTER YOUR TIME OUT. I HOPE YOU HAD A RELAXING AND A BLESSED TIME.

          REGARDS
          Mario

          • Pierre

            Hallo Mario. Trip postponed till Sunday.

            A lot of your answers I can not answer. I only have scripture, as I refuse to assume anything about The Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit based on any actions of people, what stuff looks like, what people do, how the world works etc. Have a look at youtube and you will find thousands of healings, prophesy, tongues, interpretations, exorsisms. Unfortunately Satan copy cat God in everything he can so satanist do just about everything christians can do. This is where the gift of discernment comes in. Do you not think Satan wants to discredit The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirirt in any way he can?

            Of course we can not heal at will..we are not God and we do not know if there is a reason why some one is sick…..that is why the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills and when he wills….some are permanent in some people and some is only for certain occasions… – the Holy Spirit decides – clearly stated in scripture.. many of which I quoted in previous discussions.

            Lets discuss 1 point at a time with scripture to back up our discussion.

            Your quote ” THE SIGNS OF AN APOSTLE WERE THE SIGN GIFTS 2 Corinth 12; 12 “Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”

            You said at the beginning of our discussion ” only prophets had these gifts”, and they do not exist today(healing, tongues and prophesy)
            I gave you many scriptures where the Holy Spirit gives this as He wants to anyone willing to receive it.
            Some are pemanent and some is only for certain occasions.( We will get to this as a point later on)

            You have not given me any scripture yet that sais these gifts were ONLY for apostles.

            Acts 19:2 to 7. (These were not apostles since Jesus was already gone to heaven.)

            While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

            They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

            3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

            “John’s baptism,” they replied.

            4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

            Please quote scripture if you make a point. Scripture is The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirits word and we can not project our own failures or understandings onto how They work and what They do and can do.

            You are using an awefull lot of your perceptions of the world and what people do and do not do as “evidence”. I can not explain to you why so many christians fail to live up to what is available to them. That does not mean that every single christian fail at that. Even is 0,1% get it right of your 600 million that is still 600 000 awesome christians out there. Maybe non you know but I definately know and have met a few.

            Regards

            Pierre

            • mario

              HI PIERRE

              I AGREE LETS TAKE A POINT AT A TIME AND DISCUSS IT THOUGHLY AND THEM MOVE UNTO THE NEXT POINT .

              Please give me 1 scripture that sais gifts are ONLY for prophets.

              WE KNOW THAT THE SIGN GIFTS IN ACTS WERE FOR CERTAIN BELIEVERS AND GIVEN AT THE DESCRECTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

              PLEASE NOTE WE ARE SPEAKING HERE ABOUT MARK 16. WE ARE ACCEPTING THESE VERSES AS THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.

              SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT THE GIFTS WERE FOR THEM THAT “BELIEVE” HOW MANY TIMES DID THE APOSTLES NOT BELIEVE IN THIS CHAPTER 16? VERSE 14 SPEAKING TO THE APOSTLES AND REPRIMANDING THEM FOR THEIR UNBELIEVE ? VERSE 19 AFTERWARDS THE APOSTLES WENT OUT AND PREACHED, AND THE LORD WAS WORKING “WITH THEM (APOSTLES)”CONFIRMING HIS WORD.

              LOOKING AT CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURES BELOW, IF THE SIGNS WERE FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT BELIEVES, HOW WOULD ONE DEFFERENTIATE A NORMAL BELIEVER TO THAT OF APOSTLES AND JESUS AS PER THE UNDERLYING SCRIPTURES. ?

              ” The signs of a “TRUE APOSTLE” were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.” 2 Corinthians 12:12

              “Men of Israel, listen to these words: JESUS the Nazarene, a man ATTESTED TO YOU BY GOD with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know ” Acts 2:22

              Acts 2:43 “ Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs PERFORMED BY THE APOSTLES”.

              Acts 2:43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs PERFORMED BY THE APOSTLES”.

              THERE ARE SO MANY MORE SCRIPTURES IN THIS REGARD, WERE NOT THESE SIGN GIFTS FOR CONFIRMATION, AUTHENTICATION AND AFFIRMATION OF JESUS AND THE APOSTLES?

              IF YOU SAY THESE ARE FOR EVERY BELIEVER TODAY. CAN YOU THINK OF A SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS REALLY EXPERIENCED “ALL” THESE MIRACLES.

              SIGNS AND WONDERS WERE TO FOLLOWED THEM THAT BELIEVE, NOT THE BELIEVER FOLLOWING AFTER THE SIGNS ?

              SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIRACLES ARE NOT FOR THE CHRISTIANS THAT ALREADY BELIEVE, THEY ACCOMPANIED THE GOSPAL AND WERE DONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE UNBELIEVERS TO HAVE THEM BELIEVE IN THE MESSAGE.

              REGARDS
              mARIO

              • Pierre

                Hallo Mario.

                Do you actually read the scripture I quote? Here is another:

                Acts 2:17… 17‘- In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.…

                Please explain to me how you interpret these scriptures.

                Regards

                Pierre

                • mario

                  HI PIERRE

                  Do you actually read the scripture I quote? Here is another:

                  Acts 2:17… 17‘- In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.…

                  Please explain to me how you interpret these scriptures. 

                  CAN WE START WITH VERSE 16 “16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

                  SO WE SEE THAT THIS HAPPENED AS WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL

                  JOEL 2:28-32
                  28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.”

                  THIS IS THE PROPHECY THAT PETER SAID WAS FULFILLED. WE SEE PETER
                  QUOTES A SECTION NOT JUST A COUPLE OF VERSES. THUS HE SAYS THAT THE WHOLE PROPHECY WAS FULFILLED NOT JUST A PART. AS HE SAYS “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:16).

                  PETER KNEW HE WAS LIVING IN THE LAST DAYS.
                  THEY WERE IN THE LAST DAYS. 70 AD. THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL, NO MORE TEMPLE FOR SACRIFIES. ECT.

                  THE PROPHECEY WAS ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH NOT JUST ISRAEL. ALL PEOPLE THAT PUT THEIR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

                  THE END TIMES IN VARIOUS SCRIPTURES MEAN DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS. THE “LAST DAYS” DO NOT ALWAYS REFER TO JESUS END TIME RETURN.

                • aaquadrat

                  Hi mario, I think you have a problem with your caps-lock key. Maybe get it fiixed before continuing this discussion. Best regards

                • mario

                  Hi aaquadr

                  I use capitals to differenciate the difference from someons comments ro my answer to him.

                  It makes the reply much easier to response and understand. The normal script is the persons comments the my capital letters answers the persons comments. Read my latest comments for clarity.

                  Thanks for the comment it might help others that read our comments and not get confused.

                • aaquadrat

                  Hi Mario,

                  In online culture, capital letters are considered “shouting”. I would not like to be shouted at in this way. The usual convention for quoting someone else’s statement is to use the “bird tracks”, like

                  > This is someone else’s
                  > quoted statement, which
                  > does not reflect my opinion.

                  This way, you can distinguish your own statements from other’s.

                • mario

                  The usual convention for quoting someone else’s statement is to use the “bird tracks”, like

                  > This is someone else’s
                  > quoted statement, which
                  > does not reflect my opinion.

                  Is this correct ?

                  >The usual convention for quoting someone else’s statement is to use the “bird tracks”, like
                  This way, you can distinguish your own statements from other’s.>

                  do we use > for all three of the above ? how do we know which of the 3 are implied ?

                  example

                  >Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”>

                  What does mean to you above mean to you ?

                  or is it done this way ?

                  > This is someone else’s > Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well”

                • aaquadrat

                  Hi Mario, sorry my example did not work, as the message gets reformatted by this webpage so the line breaks a gone. Maybe better:

                  > quoted line 1

                  > quoted line 2

                  > quoted line 3

                  (Separated by line breaks.)

              • Marchello

                Mario it’s sad that you wrestle the scriptures as you contradict yourself.

                Mario said June 5, 2016 at 17:09 “We do believe the old Testament and the WHOLE of Gods Word.”

                Then Mario said June 10, 2016 (emphasis his) PLEASE NOTE WE ARE SPEAKING HERE ABOUT MARK 16. WE ARE ACCEPTING THESE VERSES AS THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.

                << Mario, this is a great dishonor to the Word of God! It is clear from this comment that you DO NOT believe the WHOLE of God's Word. It was included in the King James Version published in 1611, over 400 years ago. The passage has been hotly debated for decades and REMAINS in most versions. Just because it was not included in the oldest manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) doesn't mean it wasn't included in the original versions – of which none remain.

                If you start questioning the authenticity of Bible passages you are heading down a slippery slope.

                But wait didn't you also say that the Canon and the Word of God was 'perfect'?

                • mario

                  Hi
                  2 Timothy 3:16-17New International Version (NIV)

                  16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

                • mario

                  Mario it’s sad that you wrestle the scriptures as you contradict yourself.

                  >Mario said June 5, 2016 at 17:09 “We do believe the old Testament and the WHOLE WORD of Gods Word.”

                  >Lets look at Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. As the oldest manuscripts are known to be the most accurate because there were fewer generations of copies from the original autographs (i.e., they are much closer in time to the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark
                  .
                  In addition, the fourth-century church fathers Eusebius and Jerome noted that almost all Greek manuscripts available to them lacked vv. 9–20, although they doubtless knew those other endings existed. In the second century, Justin Martyr and Tatian knew about other endings. Irenaeus, also, in A.D. 150 to 200, must have known about this long ending because he quotes verse 19 from it. So, the early church fathers knew of the added verses, but even by the fourth century, Eusebius said the Greek manuscripts did not include these endings in the originals.

                  The internal evidence from this passage also casts doubt on Mark as the author. For one thing, the transition between verses 8 and 9 is abrupt and awkward. The Greek word translated “now” that begins v. 9 should link it to what follows, as the use of the word “now” does in the other synoptic Gospels. However, what follows doesn’t continue the story of the women referred to in v. 8, describing instead Jesus’ appearing to Mary Magdalene. There’s no transition there, but rather an abrupt and bizarre change, lacking the continuity typical of Mark’s narrative. The author should be continuing the story of the women based on the word “now,” not jumping to the appearance to Mary Magdalene. Further, for Mark to introduce Mary Magdalene here as though for the very first time (v. 9) is odd because she had already been introduced in Mark’s narrative (Mark 15:40, 47, 16:1), another evidence that this section was not written by Mark.

                  >Then Mario said June 10, 2016 (emphasis his) PLEASE NOTE WE ARE SPEAKING HERE ABOUT MARK 16. WE ARE ACCEPTING THESE VERSES AS THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.

                  I am not the one that said that the verses 9-20 were not in the original scripts . Read above article and as we see in most bibles that these verses are in italic or they INSCRIPT [SHORTER ENDING OF MARK} AND [ LONGER ENDING OF MARK] why would they be? Therefore some end in verse 8, others include 9-20.

                  So yes even if they were not supposed to be there, but I have it in my bible. That is why lets accept as true.

                  << Mario, this is a great dishonor to the Word of God! It is clear from this comment that you DO NOT believe the WHOLE of God's Word. It was included in the King James Version published in 1611, over 400 years ago. The passage has been hotly debated for decades and REMAINS in most versions. Just because it was not included in the oldest manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) doesn't mean it wasn't included in the original versions – of which none remain.

                  PLEASE READ THE ABOVE ARTICLE AND IF ITS 400 YEARS AGO, IT DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS ORIGIONALLY IN THE ORIGIONAL MANUSCRIPTS. BUT AS I SAID WE ACCEPT IT AS BEING THERE AND INTERPRET IT AS IT STANDS.

                  If you start questioning the authenticity of Bible passages you are heading down a slippery slope.

                  I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BIBLE. I AM SAYING IF ITS IN THE BIBLE LETS ABIDE BY IT.

                  But wait didn't you also say that the Canon and the Word of God was 'perfect'?

                  YES THE WORD OF GOD IS PERFECT

                  The Bible is a reflection of its Author. All books are. The Bible was written by God Himself as He worked through human authors in a process called “inspiration.” “All scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). See also 2 Peter 1:21 and Jeremiah 1:2.

                  2 Timothy 3:16-17
                  16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    • Kavik

      Seem to be veering off topic here a bit – from glossolalia to general “gifts of the Spirit”.

      If one interprets “tongues” as a gift – the gift may simply be the ability to break free of traditional customs (i.e. in this case ecclesiastical diglossia) and spread the word in local vernaculars without fear of reprisals.

      I don’t believe ‘tongues’ was ever described as a ‘gift’ though, so much as a ‘manifestation’ of the Spirit.

      Nowadays, translating religious texts into multiple languages doesn’t merit a second thought, but at one time, it was simply unheard of and a huge thing when it happened – normally, you had to learn the language the text was written in (i.e. Hebrew in this case). Sort of like Muslim Indonesians reciting verses from the Qu’ran in classical Arabic; obviously a language which is a far cry from those of Indonesia. There are places in the modern world where ecclesiastical diglossia is still very much alive.

  • mario

    Hi Hi Pierre

    I always thank God for healings. I am glad that you got healed. Did you get healed at the same church ? Was the speaking in tongues at the same time you were healed or some time apart ? Why did you want to speak in tongues ? What was your reason for wanting to speak in tongues ?

    Let’s put our discussion in prospect. We were discussing the SIGN GIFTS that were given as a sign to the unbelieving Jews.

    God healed and did miracles in the O.T. God caused wombs to be opened and the 10 plagues. I believe that God heals and does miracles today.

    But just like there are no apostles today. Why because to be an apostle they had to be an eye witness. 1 John1:9  That which was from the beginning, …which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    The bible said tongues would cease. Then the question should be when did they cease ? We already discussed that tounges, prophecy and knowledge would stop. Then Faith, Hope and Love would remain. So we know Faith is the things we hope for and the evidence of things not seen. So what does this mean ? We still have faith and believe that God sent his Son Jesus and that he is our Lord and Saviour. Our Faith and Hope will also CEASE when Jesus returns. Now what will be left at his return ? Only LOVE as God is LOVE and it remains forever.

    I have also seen many, miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation.

    If you visit or read about false religions, their guru and believers also see miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation. So does it mean that these are from our God Jesus Christ ? and all these million of non believers have NO CLUE ?

    We must both be very careful on what we have or not experienced or the way we interpret scripture. We must remember we live by faith NOT by experiences, feelings or emotions they all can be very misleading.

    Yes I am saying that hundreds of thousands of christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong. There are I believe 45 million Christians that speak in tongues. If there are millions of hindus and satan worshiper and experience what christians are experiencing, should we accept their religion as the Way to god ? I do not think so.

    How many in Noah days were saved ? In Jesus days what was the church leaders doing ? Thousands of believers but they crusified Christ. Yes not the Romans but the christians.
    NOW JUST ANSWERING YOUR NEXT PARAGRAPH

    You actually telling God that according to your interpretation these things ceased many years ago when He clearly states in scripture that this is for all His children.

    PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT ALL THESE THINGS ARE FOR ALL HIS CHILDREN.

    IN MY BIBLE IT SAYS THAT IT IS NOT FOR ALL. 1 Corinthians 12: 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

    NO WERE NOT FOR EVERYONE EVEN IN THOSE DAYS.

    You are suppose to win people for God….how exactly are you doing that?

    WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF SALVATION ? ARE YOU NOT SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ? ARE WE NOT IN CHRIST ? WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN THEN WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AUTOMATICALLY. THERE NO SECOND FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    DO WE NEED MIRACLES SIGNS AND WONDERS FOR TO WIN SOULS. HOW MANY SIGNS AND WONDERS AND HEALINGS DID ISRAEL HAVE ? THEY EXPERIENCED THE VERY BEST BUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY GOT OUT OF EGYPT ? BACK TO WORSHIPING FALSE GODS ?

    SALVATION IS THE PREACHING OF GODS WORD.

    All I see is you insulting countless numbers of your brothers and sisters including the Triune God.

    THE BIBLE SAYS BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT WANT TO HEAR IT SO YOU MAKE ME YOUR ENERMY.

    You border on the blasphemy that Jesus is talking about in Mark 3:28-30.

    BLASPHEMY OF THE Holy Spirit is UNBELIEVE that God sent his Son to take away our sins of the world.
    If we do not believe on Christ finished work on the cross and His resurrection.

    I will leave it there and pray for you so you get to see and experience everything you think does not exist one day.

    THANK YOU PIERRE FOR YOUR TOUGHTS. I HOPE THROUGH THIS EXCERISE IT WILL MAKE US GO BACK AND READ THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT RELY ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS ON WHAT THE WORD SAYS.

    ITS LIKE ADAM AND EVE EAT AN APPLE. DID THEY ? EVERYONE IS TAUGHT THAT EVEN FRON SUNDAY SCHOOL BUT IT IS WRONG.
    HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK ? TWO OF EVERY KIND. WAS IT SO ? READ THAT PASSAGE AGAIN AND OU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK.

    A LIE TOLD OVER AND OVER BECOMES THE TRUTH ?

    Great speaking to you

    Regards

    MARIO

  • Pierre

    So if there is irrefutable proof of tongues, healing, miracles, conversion, God, Jesus, angels, demons, satan and everything else concerning God, then God could just have used angels to come preach to us and everyone would believe in Him. Do you believe what the Jews wrote in the old Testament? Start there. If you do not believe in God. How can anyone ever convince you that there is a language that His children speak that is the Holy Spirit speaking through them that only God understands? Or that His children can sometimes speak other earth languages that they could not speak before? And if I can prove to you that I am speaking another earth language I didn’t know, will you believe me or say I knew the language? Everyone keeps shouting for proof. If God wanted to proof anything He will send an angel to come explain it to you. Back to …do you believe what the jews wrote in the old testament….

    • mario

      We do believe the old Testament and the WHOLE of Gods Word.

      We believe in Angels and that they did speak to humans and guess WHAT the people understood them and spoke back to the Angels in their own language, and guess WHAT. The angels understood them.

      Why would the Holy Spirit want to speak through you to hget to God ? The holy Spirit speaks mysteries that can NOT BE UTTERED WHY IS TONGUE SPEAKERS UTTERING that which CAN NOT BE UTTERED.

      The Jews, as a nation, began with signs (Rom. 4:11; Exo. 4:8, 9, 17, 28, 30; 7:3; 8:23; 10:1-2; 13:9; 31:13, 17; Deu. 4:34; 6:22).

      The Old Testament Jews lived by signs (Deu. 11:18; Jos. 4:6; 1 Sam. 10:7; 2 Kgs. 19:29; Isa. 7:14; 38:7, 22; Ezk. 4:3; 20:12, 20).

      The Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ (Mat. 12:38; 16:1-4; 24:3; Jhn. 2:18; 6:30).

      The Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:22; Jhn. 4:48).

      According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the gifts of tongues and healing are signs (Mar. 16:16-20).

      These signs were for the purpose of confirming the word of God (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3-4).

      These signs are spoken of in the past tense in 2 Corinthians 12:12 and in Hebrews 2:3-4, not in the present or future tense.

      Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).

      WE DO NOT NEED ANGLES TO COME SO WE CAN BELIEVE. WE BELIEVE GOD AND EVERYTHING IN GODS WORD.

      • Pierre

        Mark16:..Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…

        Acts 2:4: ..They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. 5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.…

        Acts 10:4-48: ..While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

        2 Corinthians 12:12 doesn’t even mention tongues and sais nothing of future miracles and wonders.

        1 Corinthians 12:9-12…Hebrews 2:3-4 … no idea how you come to the conclussion this means there is no tongues today…

        1 Corinthians 12:10 …to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in various tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines.…

        1 Corinthians 12: 27-29…Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?…

        1 Corinthians 13:1-3…If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.…

        1 Corinthians 14:1-3…Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort.…

        1 Corinthians 14:25-27…and the secrets his of heart be will be revealed. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!” 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.…

        So after all the above you gonna go with your 2 scriptures that do not even mention tongues.

        Your quote “Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).

        My quote “Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.” Telling the Holy Spirit what He is doing is not Him but some devil….Good luck when we get to judgment day……

        • mario

          Hi thanks for the reply. Please read carefully. JOHN 20:21-23  Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

          1 Corinthians 13: 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

          LET’S START FROM VERSE
          9 NOT 16 IT BRINGS MORE UNDERSTANDING

          9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. 12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it to the rest, but THEY DID NOT BELIEVE them either. 14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and HE REBUKED THEIR UNBELIEVE and hardness of heart, because THEY DID NOT BELIEVE those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

          WHO WAS JESUS SPEAKING TO IN VERSE 14 ? HIS APOSTLES.

          WHO WERE THE UNBELIEVERS ?HIS APOSTLES

          NOW IF HIS APOSTLES BELIEVE AS THEY DID NOT BELIEVE THEN THEY WOULD FROM VERSE 16

          Mark16:..Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…

          IF YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS TALKING TO EVERYONE AND NOT JUST THE APOSTLES BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBEVELIE THAT HE WAS RIASED FROM THE DEAD.

          YOU STILL THINK TONGUES HAVE NOT CEASED AS PER SCRIPTURE. WHY ARE ALL THE SPEAKING PEOPLE NOT driving out demons; speaking in new tongues (MANY TONGUES). NOT A SINGLE HEAVENLY LANGUAGE); 18 pick up snakes, deadly poison,lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…

          WHY ARE SO MANY CHRISTIANS AND NON CHRISTIANS SICK AND NOT HEALED. WHY ARE OUR HOSPITALS FULL.

          Acts 2:4: ..They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them…..

          2 Corinthians 12:12 doesn’t even mention tongues and says nothing of future miracles and wonders.

          THE SIGNS OF AN APOSTLE WERE THE SIGN GIFTS 2 Corinth 12; 12 “Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”
          HERE AGAIN PASSED TENSE ?

          Acts 10:4-48:
          1 Corinthians 12:9-12…Hebrews 2:3-4 … no idea how you come to the conclussion this means there is no tongues today…

          WAS PAUL NOT TALKING TO THE CORINTHIAN CHURCH WHY HE WAS REPREMANDING THEM. THEY WERE IN CAOS. THEY HAD THE GIFTS BUT THE QUESTION “ARE THE GIFTS FOR TODAY?”

          1 CORINTHIANS 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are PROPHECIES they will FAIL; whether there are TONGUES, they will CEASE; whether there is KNOWLEDGE , it will VANISH AWAY. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

          WHY WOULD THESE SPECIFIC 3 CEASE TO EXIST ? WHY NOT ALL THE GIFTS EXCEPT LOVE ?

          1 Corinthians 12:10 …to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of 1
          Corinthians 12: 27-29…Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?…

          NOT ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES ?

          1 Corinthians 13:1-3…If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.…

          PAUL HYPOBOLIC SPEACH IF “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels” AND ALSO “if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains” CAN ANYONE ONE MOVE MOUNTAINS WITH THEIR FAITH ? NO.

          CAN ANYONE SPEAK ANGEL LANGUAGE IF THERE IS ONE ? NO

          ANGELS ALWAYS SPOKE IN EVERYONES MOTHER LANGUAGE AND THEY ALL SPOKE BACK TO THEM IN THERE OWN LANGUAGE.

          WHY SPEAK IN A “HEAVENLY LANGUAGE” SO SATAN CAN NOT UNDERSTAND? IF IT MUST BE INTERPRETED IN THE CHURCH ? NO MORE SECRETS THEN ?

          WHY DID JESUS TEACH US THE LORDS PRAY ? SATAN CAN HEAR US ?

          1 Corinthians 14:1-3…
          Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort.…

          1 Corinthians 14:25-27…and the secrets his of heart be will be revealed. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!” 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.…

          So after all the above you gonna go with your 2 scriptures that do not even mention tongues.

          ALL THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE CORRECT TONGUES WAS A TRUE SIGN GIFT. NOW WHO WERE THE SIGN GIFTS FOR ? THE UNBELIEVERS AND THEN AS I MENTIONED SCRIPTURE ABOVE TONGUES ECT SHALL CEASE. NO ONE IS DISPUTING TONGUES EXISTED BUT THEY CEASED. WHEN THEY CEASED WHAT GIFTS WERE LEFT ?
          FAITH – HOPE – LOVE

          1CORINTHIANS 13:13 And now abide FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

          LOOK AT 2 corith 12:12 ” Truly the signs of an apostle WERE accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

          ALREADY IN THE PAST TENSE.

          HEB 2;3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

          THE TWO SCRIPTURES ALREADY SPEAKING IN THE PAST TENSE (WERE). NOT IN THE PRESENT OR FUTURE TENSE ?

          Your quote “Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).

          I AM JUST QUOTING SCRIPTURE. AN ADUALTEROUS AND WICKET GENERATION SEEKS SIGNS.

          My quote “Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.” Telling the Holy Spirit what He is doing is not Him but some devil….Good luck when we get to judgment day……

          CAN WE NOT CHANGE YOUR THINKING TO
          ” TELLING THE HOLY SPIRIT WHAT SOME DEVIL IS DOING IS FROM HIM.

          IF ALL DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES AND PEOPLE ARE BEING TAUGHT HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES. ARE THESE PEOPLE NOT TELLING THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT HE IS NOT DOING HIS WORK PROPERLY ?

          Good luck when we get to judgment day……

          I WOULD NOT SAY THIS TO YOU. BUT I PRAY FOR YOU TO READ AND UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES. COLOSSIANS 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

          HOW DO WE KNOW THE SIGN GIFTS WERE CEASING ? JUST LOOK AT THE END OF PAULS MINISTARY. STUDY ALL HIS HEALINGS.

          BUT AT THE END OF HIS MINISTERY HE COULD NOT HEAL HIMSELF (2 Corinth 12;5-10). HE COULD NOT HEAL TROPHIMUS (2 Tim 4;20). HE COULD NOT HEAL TIMOTHY (1 Tim 5:23).

          WHY IS TONGUES NOT MENTIONED AS A SPIRITUAL GIFT AFTER THE BOOK OF 2 CORINTHIANS ?
          Ephesians 4:8-12 AND Romans 12; 6-8.

          SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE THAT GOD HAS instucted one to Pray, Preach, Sing or praise God IN TONGUES ??

          • Pierre

            Hallo Mario. We can keep quoting scripture to each other all year long. We obvious do not interpret it the same way. I have been healed from arthritus which is hereditary in our family. I was prayed for in my church and received tongues. I have been a christian for 30 years and have seen many, many miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation. So you gonna tell me, I and all these christians have no clue. Good luck bud.

            Be very carefull when you have not experienced these things to take on what the Holy Spirit does and do not do by the way you interpret scripture. You are saying that hundreds of thousands of christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong. You actually telling God that according to your interpretation these things ceased many years ago when He clearly states in scripture that this is for all His children.

            You are suppose to win people for God….how exactly are you doing that?

            All I see is you insulting countless numbers of your brothers and sisters including the Triune God.

            You border on the blasphemy that Jesus is talking about in Mark 3:28-30.

            I will leave it there and pray for you so you get to see and experience everything you think does not exist one day.

            Regards

            Pierre

            • mario

              Hi Hi Pierre

              I always thank God for healings. I am glad that you got healed. Did you get healed at the same church ? Was the speaking in tongues at the same time you were healed or some time apart ? Why did you want to speak in tongues ? What was your reason for wanting to speak in tongues ?

              Let’s put our discussion in prospect. We were discussing the SIGN GIFTS that were given as a sign to the unbelieving Jews.

              God healed and did miracles in the O.T. God caused wombs to be opened and the 10 plagues. I believe that God heals and does miracles today.

              But just like there are no apostles today. Why because to be an apostle they had to be an eye witness. 1 John1:9  That which was from the beginning, …which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

              The bible said tongues would cease. Then the question should be when did they cease ? We already discussed that tounges, prophecy and knowledge would stop. Then Faith, Hope and Love would remain. So we know Faith is the things we hope for and the evidence of things not seen. So what does this mean ? We still have faith and believe that God sent his Son Jesus and that he is our Lord and Saviour. Our Faith and Hope will also CEASE when Jesus returns. Now what will be left at his return ? Only LOVE as God is LOVE and it remains forever.

              I have also seen many, miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation.

              If you visit or read about false religions, their guru and believers also see miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation. So does it mean that these are from our God Jesus Christ ? and all these million of non believers have NO CLUE ?

              We must both be very careful on what we have or not experienced or the way we interpret scripture. We must remember we live by faith NOT by experiences, feelings or emotions they all can be very misleading.

              Yes I am saying that hundreds of thousands of christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong. There are I believe 45 million Christians that speak in tongues. If there are millions of hindus and satan worshiper and experience what christians are experiencing, should we accept their religion as the Way to god ? I do not think so.

              How many in Noah days were saved ? In Jesus days what was the church leaders doing ? Thousands of believers but they crusified Christ. Yes not the Romans but the christians.
              NOW JUST ANSWERING YOUR NEXT PARAGRAPH

              You actually telling God that according to your interpretation these things ceased many years ago when He clearly states in scripture that this is for all His children.

              PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT ALL THESE THINGS ARE FOR ALL HIS CHILDREN.

              IN MY BIBLE IT SAYS THAT IT IS NOT FOR ALL. 1 Corinthians 12: 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

              NO WERE NOT FOR EVERYONE EVEN IN THOSE DAYS.

              You are suppose to win people for God….how exactly are you doing that?

              WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF SALVATION ? ARE YOU NOT SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ? ARE WE NOT IN CHRIST ? WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN THEN WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AUTOMATICALLY. THERE NO SECOND FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

              DO WE NEED MIRACLES SIGNS AND WONDERS FOR TO WIN SOULS. HOW MANY SIGNS AND WONDERS AND HEALINGS DID ISRAEL HAVE ? THEY EXPERIENCED THE VERY BEST BUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY GOT OUT OF EGYPT ? BACK TO WORSHIPING FALSE GODS ?

              SALVATION IS THE PREACHING OF GODS WORD.

              All I see is you insulting countless numbers of your brothers and sisters including the Triune God.

              THE BIBLE SAYS BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT WANT TO HEAR IT SO YOU MAKE ME YOUR ENERMY.

              You border on the blasphemy that Jesus is talking about in Mark 3:28-30.

              BLASPHEMY OF THE Holy Spirit is UNBELIEVE that God sent his Son to take away our sins of the world.
              If we do not believe on Christ finished work on the cross and His resurrection.

              I will leave it there and pray for you so you get to see and experience everything you think does not exist one day.

              THANK YOU PIERRE FOR YOUR TOUGHTS. I HOPE THROUGH THIS EXCERISE IT WILL MAKE US GO BACK AND READ THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT RELY ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS ON WHAT THE WORD SAYS.

              ITS LIKE ADAM AND EVE EAT AN APPLE. DID THEY ? EVERYONE IS TAUGHT THAT EVEN FRON SUNDAY SCHOOL BUT IT IS WRONG.
              HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK ? TWO OF EVERY KIND. WAS IT SO ? READ THAT PASSAGE AGAIN AND OU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK.

              A LIE TOLD OVER AND OVER BECOMES THE TRUTH ?

              Great speaking to you

              Regards

              Mario

            • mario

              One of my morning readings. Should we be Doing things that we do not know what we are saying, believing, doing and allowing into us ? That’s why the bible says seek knowledge and understanding ?

              1 Samuel 28:14-20

              (14) So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. (15) Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ (16) Then Samuel said: ‘So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? (17) And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. (18) Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. (19) Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.” (20) Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.
              New King James Version Change your email Bible version

              The internal evidence from the narrative reveals a number of significant details to conclude that the spirit the medium saw was not Samuel but a demon impersonating him. One of the most obvious clues is that the text tells the reader outright—twice!—that the Lord would not answer Saul (I Samuel 28:6, 15-16), and there is no way that God would answer him through a lying spirit during an abominable séance! One of the points of the story is to show what desperate people will do when they are cut off from God, in fear for their lives, and without hope.

              Yet, this does not mean that the demon does not give Saul a truthful answer. Acting as if it were Samuel, the demon wounds the king with the cruelest words it can use, complaining about being disturbed in his rest, mocking Saul for seeking him, and rubbing it in that God had left him and become his enemy. It reminds him of one of Samuel’s prophecies—given when Saul had disobeyed God’s instruction about the punishment of Amalek and its king, Agag (see I Samuel 15)—foretelling that the kingdom would be torn from him and given to another, David (I Samuel 15:23, 26-28). Finally, it predicts that both he and his sons would die in the next day’s battle against the Philistines, a reasonable assumption considering how overmatched Saul’s forces were.

              The demon’s words have the desired effect: “Immediately, Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night” (I Samuel 28:20). Playing on Saul’s fears and weakness, the demon succeeds in bringing the big man low, destroying any remnant of hope. Later, after finally eating and resting (verses 21-25), he leaves the medium’s house a completely broken man.

              So, what happened at En Dor?

              1. At the end of his rope and highly susceptible to suggestion, Saul was ready to clutch at any straw of hope for a better outcome.

              2. The medium was a fraud, bilking people of their money by preying on their superstitions. The spirit’s appearance shocked her.

              3. At most God allowed a demon to impersonate Samuel and pronounce Saul’s doom to him, to give him the truth from the only source he had ever trusted to speak straight to him.

              In the end, the story of Saul and the medium at En Dor is a morality play of sorts, an object lesson to teach how dangerous it is to forsake God and turn to the counsels of demons through sorcery and divination. It is a path of fear, despair, lies, curses, and death. It records the sad and tragic end of a man who had shown such great potential but who had allowed jealousy and pride to bring him and his house to ruin.

              — Richard T. Ritenbaugh

            • Augustine

              Actually Pierre, you cannot blaspheme the spirit by speaking against tongues. The blasphemy you refer to spoken by Jesus was attributing the works of Jesus to Satan. This is the unforgivable sin and cannot be made today.

              • Pierre

                Hallo Augustine.

                Mark 3 : 28 – 30 say the following…Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
                Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
                Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

                So Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirits work that they said was the work of a devil. So if speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit as clearly stated in all the scripture I quoted previously, then saying speaking in tongues is satanic or demonic is doing exactly what the people Jesus was speaking to did.

                Therefore my warning to Mario about stating facts about something you know nothing about…dangerous.

                Regards

                Pierre

                • mario

                  Hi Was the Holy Spirit yet given in Mark 3 ? What was meant by anyone that blaspheme the Holy Spirit ? Is it sinning, saying its that something is not his work, cursing Him, or what are the things that we can do that means we blaspheme the Holy Ghost?

              • Pierre

                Hallo Augustine.

                Mark 3:22 to 30 sais…Mar 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
                Mar 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
                Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
                Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
                Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
                Mar 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
                Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
                Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
                Mar 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

                Jesus was talking about the work of the Holy Spirit that the scribes said was an unclean spirit or beelzebub, prince of the devils and by whose power He was casting out demons.

                Tongues are clearly a gift of the Holy Spirit as can be seen in all the scripture I quoted.
                Therefore the warning to Mario and whoever else feels like saying tongues are from the devil or by the power of a evil spirit.
                Be very careful about making statements about something concerning not being the Holy Spirit but a devil if you have no
                experience or knowledge as stated by the bible.

                Regards

                Pierre

            • mario

              Hi Pierre hope all is well. You see Salvation and the Word of God are real. According to the bible one lives by Faith NOT by experiences, emotions and feelings. If speaking in tongues is experienced by so many does it make it Right? There are millions that believe in Evolution, worshiping Mary, Satanism, Hindu, Buddha, Homosexual behavior and so on DOES THAT make it CORRECT? OR VALID? You see experiences, emotions and feelings are according to the FLESH, they can not be trusted. Everything that we say is from God must be according to what the Bible says. Are there scriptures that command us to Worship, Pray, Sing and Praise God in tongues ?

              • Pierre

                Hallo Mario

                That would be …Co_14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
                1Co_14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
                1Co_14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
                1Co_14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
                1Co_14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

                Paul found it to be that important, especially in his own life.

                Regards

                Pierre

                • mario

                  Hi Pierre 1 Corinthians 14: 18 was Paul saying he spoke more earthly languages OR more Heavenly Languages than most ?
                  Why was 1 Corinthians written ?
                  Is tongues a sign for the believers today, they are taught to speak in tongues OR was tongues for the UNBELIEVER whilst today it is for the BELIEVER?
                  Why was tongues important for Paul? we know that he spoke quite a few earthly languages. If he said he spoke more heavenly languages an others HOW WOULD he KNOW that ?
                  The gift was also important as we saw in Acts 2 , 3000 were added to the church.AND ALSO that the people heard in their own language, the different earthly languages are mentioned. AND ALSO it was the prophesy of Joel being fulfilled.

  • Kavik

    Marchello,

    To your points –

    “They hear them speaking in their own dialect/vernacular (dialektw). That is the true meaning and ‘sense’ of that verse.”…..

    I think this is a case of people are reading way too much into individual words and over-analyzing why one word is used over another. Yes, in modern usage there’s an obvious difference between language (glossa) vs. dialect/vernacular (dialektw), but the word ‘dialect’ is used even today by many people to refer to what are actually languages; “My friend from Zimbabwe speaks an African dialect.” Or even “She speaks in the local dialect of Toshkent.” What’s really meant here, dialect or language? I would argue it’s clearly language. Luke simply chooses to use the word dialektw instead of glossa. The Greek word ‘dialektos’ may be translated either as ‘language’ or ‘dialect’ (with the meaning of ‘language’ as in my examples above). There are other passages in the Bible where the word ‘dialektos’ clearly refers to language, not what we think of as a dialect (i.e. Yorkshire English as opposed to the English of Kent).

    “I didn’t read anything that suggests there was outrage at the ‘Galileans’ for teaching in high Hebrew or Greek.”…

    I don’t know that I used ‘outrage’; people were astonished and amazed to be hearing their native languages (instead of the expected Hebrew) and clearly some of the people were not happy about it and accused them of being drunk.

    “Verses 9 through 11 goes on to list all the dialects they are hearing. (That’s why there is such a comprehensive list provided – the visitors were astounded that the ‘Galileans’ were speaking in their mother tongues).”

    No! The list does not name even one language; it’s just a list of geographical locations (about 10) and a few ethnicities (about 5) – nowhere does the list name any language. These locations encompassed the “Jewish world”, if you will (though I think there are one or two places missing from the list) – Palestine/Judea as well as the lands of the Diaspora. The intention may have been that this message was for the entire Jewish Nation – Judea and the Diaspora, not just for a specific group of Jews.

    “The verse also says the ‘Galileans’ were speaking about ‘the wonderful works of God’. It doesn’t say anywhere that they were PREACHING OR TEACHING as in a sermon or lesson.”…

    Well, that’s just kind of semantics I guess – if you’re speaking about the ‘wonderful works of God’ to people who are unfamiliar with them, you’re essentially preaching/teaching; it doesn’t have to be in a formal sermon/lesson form. In any case, Hebrew would have been the more proper language to use in this instance.

    “Are you qualified in Bible exegesis to make a scholarly claim to this translation? There is no Bible translation that even hints at your theory.”…

    Not sure what you mean here – ? I’m not translating anything; just looking at what’s there in a different light.

    “This link is a more scholarly and scientific refutation of Zerhuson’s (and your) theory. http://www.4-14.org.uk/tongues-in-acts-2-part-3“….

    The author suggests there are five points that need to be proven – points one and two seem to be okay and do not have an argument against them.

    Point 3 – The only two languages of the diaspora as Greek and Aramaic – unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be anything absolutely 100% conclusive either way. Evidence seems to suggest that Jews in the diaspora tended to live in the larger cities (i.e. they were more ‘urban’) and more likely to keep their language than adopt the one of the country they were living in – that’s not to say a Jew from Parthia would not know Middle Persian/Parthian, but most likely it would not be his/her native language.

    For Jews living in the western diaspora however, there really was only one language: Greek, as these places had been Hellenized for generations and Greek, due to it being so widespread as a lingua franca, was seen as perfectly acceptable as opposed to keeping Aramaic as one’s mother tongue and learning Greek as a second (or third) language. In fact, because of the dominance of Greek among the western Diaspora, there was a need for a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Septuagint, which became the standard text used in the synagogues of the western Diaspora, is evidence that Greek was the native language of these Judeans. One may even postulate that in the western Diaspora, Greek was slowly being seen more and more as an acceptable ‘H language’ alongside Hebrew.

    It’s the eastern diaspora that gets a bit tricky.

    This point (Aramaic or local languages), I agree, could be argued well either way simply due to the lack of evidence. It is however, reasonable to suggest that a Jewish ethnic and religious group in the eastern diaspora would tend to keep their language and culture as well as learn the language and culture of the country they are living in. Zerhusen states “Although Greek was used in Palestine and had penetrated parts of the eastern Diaspora, the Aramaic language continued to dominate in the east. Jacob Neusner says of the use of Aramaic and Greek among the eastern Diaspora: “Most Jews…did not speak Greek but Aramaic (this is inferred from Josephus’ writings, and from later literature), and in later periods produced literature in Hebrew and Aramaic”. F.F. Bruce, discussing the language situation of the eastern Diaspora listed in Acts 2:9-11, wrote: “Parthia, Media, Elam (Elymias) and Mesopotamia lay east of the Euphrates, the Jews in those areas spoke Aramaic. These were the lands of the earliest dispersion, to which exiles from the ten northern tribes of Israel had been deported by the Assyrians in the eighth and seventh centuries B.C. We may recall here (see 2 Kgs 18:19-28) that prior to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests and exile of the Judeans, ordinary Judeans spoke Hebrew as their native tongue and were unfamiliar with Aramaic. This linguistic situation was completely reversed by the time the Judeans returned from their exile. When they returned to Palestine, Hebrew was no longer their native tongue, having been replaced by Aramaic. The most reasonable explanation for this linguistic shift is that the native language for the eastern Diaspora had become Aramaic.”

    I live in a city that had a huge textile producing mill in the late 1800’s early 1900’s. They actively recruited workers from literally all over Europe (east and west) and thus, we have a huge ethnic diversity here – many of these ethnic groups still preserve their language and culture. Even today I see this happening – my city has seen in the last ten years or so a huge influx of Bosnians, Somalians and Hispanics. They all closely preserve their language and culture (and learn our culture and English as a second one to theirs). Though this may not be the same situation as Jews living in the diaspora two thousand years ago, there’s no reason to assume people wouldn’t do the same thing with regards to preserving their identity and not wanting to blend into the masses. Getting back to the example of Jews of Parthia – I would argue that Aramaic would have been the language of home and within the Jewish community, Parthian would have been a second or third language to be used with the “locals” when needed, not a mother tongue.

    Point 4 – the author argues that Greek as well as Hebrew could be regarded as the “H language” – the more proper language to use – Greek seems to be gaining quite a bit of ground during this time period as being an acceptable alternative to Hebrew as the ‘H language’ particularly amongst the western Diaspora. While the evidence is inconclusive, what little there is seems to point to this. While there certainly may have been those present who would think nothing of hearing the disciples speak in Greek, for some, it was clearly still not culturally acceptable as the narrative comments so much on the astonishment and amazement (and apparently for some, anger) of the crowd in hearing this being done.

    Point 5 – The significance of it all. I don’t see this as really being an argument, but….There’s really no where in the entire narrative that suggests there was any type of a communication problem to begin with. Peter spoke to the crowd in one language (Acts 2:14) and apparently was understood by everyone (of course, we have no clue what language that was, but I suspect Greek). So if no language miracle took place, what was the point? To paraphrase from Zerhusen – Luke’s purpose in presenting the list (with Cyprus and Syria missing) was perhaps not intended to represent linguistic diversity, but rather may suggest that the first apostolic ministry was to the Jewish Nation as a whole (Diaspora included).

    The real miracle of the Holy Spirit here may simply have been to give the disciples the courage and spiritual strength to “spread the word” and to dispose of the cultural necessity to do so in one (or two) language(s) (i.e. observe strict adherence to ecclesiastical diglossia). They could now break that cultural barrier and use the local vernaculars without fear of any reprise.

    The five points the author makes are legitimate, but three of them (1, 2, and 5) can virtually be dismissed. Of the two remaining, point 4 seems to be the weaker of the two – Greek seems to have been gaining quite a bit of ground, but I would argue that for some, to push it to the limits of a holy language in Judaism alongside Hebrew was just not acceptable and going too far judging from the reaction of the crowd.

  • Sherry

    My goodness you all are so very knowledgeable. I could listen to your arguments for hours and I so respect your honorable way of handling disagreement among each other. Well done! That being said, this simple old woman won’t even begin to embarrass herself by trying to add anything of value to this conversation. But just as an FYI I will tell this story. I had a friend whose brother had joined his wife’s church a few years after they were married. He was given a cassette tape (yes I’m that old) to practice speaking in tongues. He brought it home at her request. The more he listened to it the more he disagreed with the practice and told his wife he would not be “performing” for them. The church leaders put so much pressure on him AND her to go along with this that he refused to go anymore. They shamed and bullied her so much to leave him for this offense they eventually were divorced. I am only speaking of this practice at this one church only. I believe that speaking in tongues as in the Bible is a gift from God given to only some of us. I’m not sure it is valid today but it is certainly possible. Shoot ahead ten years and my brother and his wife joined that same church because her deceased father was a member there for a good part of his life. My brother started to study to become a pastor and got our Roman Catholic mother to become a member there. My mother and brother never spoke in tongues in front of me but after my father passed away they socked her for every penny they could. She was a beautiful, innocently sweet, God loving soul. Churches like that one adore her type. Sigh. God bless you all and thank you for the education. I will be printing this out for future reference. Excellent conversation.

    • Kavik

      That’s really an unfortunate experience – I think, however, it seems to evidence the almost *necessity* of some spiritual paths to validate their beliefs, particularly when it comes to ‘speaking in tongues’ – I really have to wonder at times how much of it is just a performance. From what I’ve been able to research, it seems ‘performing’ (a/k/a/ ‘faking it’) is much more a common occurrence than I would have ever thought!

  • Ben

    At one meeting a white lady up the front started babbling in tongues…………except this time a foreign family visiting understood and heard it as their own mother tongue! I wasn’t there so I cannot verify this as authentic. I would agree that the vast majority of the time it certainly does sound like people are blabbing away………………..

    • Kavik

      Unfortunately, this is the typical scenario – supposedly an instance of xenoglossia, but not at all documented. Someone speaks in tongues and supposedly a person, or persons recognize it as their native language. It would be great to have some documented proof of such an instance as the Pentecostal/Charismatic tradition seems to be rife with similar examples, but nothing to date has been able to be proven as a genuine case of xenoglossia.

  • Kavik

    Marchello,

    No, not at all – but what I am doing is shedding some light on a more logical interpretation of what was written in the Pentecost narrative, taking into account some basic factors of Jewish culture from that time period; specifically, and most importantly, the concept of ecclesiastical diglossia. This interpretation negates a language miracle of xenoglossia (none was needed) as well as glossolalia (ecstatic utterances were also not needed), people understood the disciples in their mother tongues).

    In all of the examples you give, the astonishment of the crowd is clear – “why are we hearing these guys speak in our mother tongues (i.e. native languages)??” That is – “Why are we hearing them speak in Aramaic and Greek when the correct language for such an occasion is Hebrew??”

    You have to keep in mind two things; the concept of ecclesiastical diglossia and the fact that nowhere in the passage does it state what those tongues/languages were! It is assumed it would be obvious to the reader. How?

    The narrative tells us exactly where the Jews from the diaspora visiting Jerusalem for Shavuot were from – from this list we can see that there are people there from the eastern diaspora (e.g. Parthia, Elam, Mesopotamia, and Arabia) and the western diaspora (e.g. Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Libya belonging to Cyrene, Crete, and Rome).

    The lands of the western diaspora had been Hellenized for centuries (Greek was common even in Rome) – the language of the western diaspora was Greek. The language of the eastern diaspora (those not Hellenized) was Aramaic.

    Even if one were to try and put estimates on the percentages of those from Jerusalem and the surrounding areas in Judea as well as those from the Diaspora (and even try and estimate how many were from the western and eastern diasporas), the number is really irrelevant; it’s the languages we’re concerned about. No matter how you slice it, all those people would have been fluent ion one of those two languages (or even both).

    Concerning the passage where people are essentially saying “Hey, aren’t these guys all Galileans? How come we’re hearing them in our own native languages?” When you take the concept of ecclesiastical diglossia into account, the narrative makes considerably more sense. “Hey, aren’t these guys all Galileans? Why are they speaking to us in Aramaic and Greek our native tongues? They should know better than that! Don’t they know the proper language in this situation is Hebrew? They must be all drunk to even thing of doing such a thing!” Violating ecclesiastical diglossia was simply something that was not done. The proper language they should be using on Shavuot to proclaim about God is Hebrew, not Aramaic and Greek.

    It’s a bit radical to think of it this way for some perhaps, but the modern interpretations I think try to read way too much into what is a simple explanation that makes perfect sense.

    • Marchello

      Kavik – well… it’s a theory, lol. Yes it’s a bit radical and not particularly logical. Why? If you simply read the verses in the original Greek it doesn’t even hint at this theory.

      (read it for yourself) http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/act2.pdf

      In Act 2 verse 6 the visitors to Jerusalem are astounded because they hear the ‘Galileans’ speaking in their own…

      dialektw
      dialektO
      G1258

      They hear them speaking in their own dialect/vernacular. That is the true meaning and ‘sense’ of that verse.

      I didn’t read anything that suggests there was outrage at the ‘Galileans’ for teaching in high Hebrew or Greek.

      Verses 9 through 11 goes on to list all the dialects they are hearing. (That’s why there is such a comprehensive list provided – the visitors were astounded that the ‘Galileans’
      were speaking in their mother tongues).

      The verse also says the ‘Galileans’ were speaking about ‘the wonderful works of God’. It doesn’t say anywhere that they were PREACHING OR TEACHING as in a sermon or lesson.

      Are you qualified in Bible exegesis to make a scholarly claim to this translation? There is no Bible translation that even hints at your theory.

      This link is a more scholarly and scientific refutation of Zerhuson’s (and your) theory.

      http://www.4-14.org.uk/tongues-in-acts-2-part-3

  • Kavik

    PART 2

    To paraphrase from Robert Zerhusen’s articles: “This creates a huge problem for any sort of language miracle to have occurred – the disciples would have been familiar with both languages. So what then were these “other tongues” the narrative refers to? Very simply, the “other languages” would have been nothing more than Greek and Aramaic. But why would the narrative call them “other languages” when they would have been familiar to the disciples (speakers)? Other than WHAT language? Why would the crowd react with such amazement and even ridicule when they heard the disciples teaching/proclaiming in Aramaic and Greek (languages the disciples already knew)?” It doesn’t seem to make sense.

    To gain a better understanding and to try and put it in better perspective one must look at the significance of Hebrew in Jewish culture.

    What one must understand is that in many ancient cultures (in this case the Jewish culture) the language of prayer, worship, and in some cases religious teaching, was very specific. Something we really don’t have today so it’s hard to relate to. In many cultures, when you prayed, you prayed in one specific prescribed language…period. For Jews, this was Hebrew. To do so in another language was simply unheard of and unthinkable (though Aramaic was allowed in some cases for some prayers). As odd and even nonsensical as it sounds to us today, for a Jew at that time, to hear someone praising, proclaiming, or praying to THEIR God in say Galatian or Assyrian, or even Aramaic and Greek for that matter, would have been utterly shocking and sort of akin to a cultural taboo; it just wasn’t done; Hebrew was the only proper choice in this context.

    This phenomenon, the use of two different languages by a people under certain social conventions is called diglossia. This exists today in some European countries, but not in America. In Germany for example the language of the government, newspapers, television, education, etc. is High German whilst the general populace speaks in various Low German dialects. In Greece one sees “katharevusa” the “high language” of literature, education, etc., but people speak ‘demotic‘ the “low language” on a day to day basis. Both variants are Greek, just different forms.

    In a religious context this is seen even today – Hebrew is the language of Judaism, Classical Arabic the language if Islam, Coptic the language of the Coptic Christian Church, Sanskrit the language if Hinduism and Buddhism. In the Roman Catholic Church, until recently, it was Latin.

    There is typically a distinction in prestige between the high language (H) and the low language (L). H is seen as superior to L in most instances. H is used to express more important thoughts, it is seen as somehow more beautiful than L. The H language is seen as connecting the community to its past, some would believe that H is more divinely sanctioned. In short, to use L in certain situations (religious settings, for example) was, and in some cultures still is, seen as a major taboo and culturally unacceptable.

    First century Judeans would have viewed Hebrew as the H language and Aramaic (and/or Greek, depending on where you were from) as the L language(s).

    So strong are these taboos in some cultures that people have been killed as a result of violating them. William Tyndale, for example, was killed for violating ecclesiastical diglossia in England when he translated the Bible (H language – Latin) into English (L language – local vernacular).

    “Other tongues/languages” to Judeans when it came to religion meant something very simple – languages other than Hebrew.

    These “other languages/tongues” for Jews in both Israel/Palestine and the Diaspora were simply their native languages of Greek and Aramaic; the L languages which they differentiated from Hebrew, the H language.

    The Jewish crowd expected to be hearing the priests conducting the liturgy in what they call “leshon ha-kodesh” – “the holy language”, i.e. Hebrew, the H language. This was the expectation even though Hebrew would not be intelligible to most of them; it was the cultural expectation. They would never expect to hear ordinary people boldly prophesying in an L language (Aramaic and/or Greek) in this situation. The importance of using the right kind of language in a particular situation was/is critical. .

    When people heard the disciples speaking in the L languages of Aramaic and Greek rather than the expected H language of Hebrew, their reaction was one of amazement and in some cases even anger. This was simply not something that was seen as culturally acceptable. To paraphrase – “Why do we hear them in our native languages (instead of the expected H language of Hebrew)?”

    Some even accused the disciples of being drunk. As Zerhusen puts it, “To them, only a drunk person would be so uninhibited as to ignore the sacred/profane distinction inherent in the Jewish diglossia.”

    In summary, as far as Pentecost is concerned, there really was no language miracle (i.e. xenoglossia) and certainly no ecstatic utterances. It was simply the disciples prophesying and teaching in the common languages of Aramaic and Greek (the L languages which they all were familiar with) instead of Hebrew (the expected H language in this situation). This simple explanation not only encompasses the cultural expectations of the day, but completely negates the need for trying to explain a language miracle or ecstatic utterances.

    The true miracle or ‘gift’ of the Holy Spirit here may have simply been the apostles finding the courage to go out and boldly preach in the everyday languages of those gathered for the feast; these were, we are told, people supposedly literally in fear of their lives behind locked doors after the execution of their leader, Jesus by the foreign occupiers (the Romans) of their homeland. The true gift of the Spirit may have been simply the courage for them to overcome this fear. The language used to speak to the masses simply Aramaic and Greek, being done for the first time to illustrate that the message of the disciples need not be solely limited to the expected H language of Hebrew.

    We may therefore conclude that “other tongues (read “languages”) in Acts are nothing more than the two native languages of the attendees: Aramaic and Greek. Both of which the disciples would have spoken.

    Divers tongues (read “various languages’) simply refers to languages other than Hebrew (and most likely Aramaic and Greek) – what would have been perceived by Jews as true “foreign” languages (e.g. Latin, Egyptian, Babylonian, Galatian, etc.). People who were polyglot (had the ability to learn and speak multiple languages) may have been perceived as having a divine ‘gift’ which enabled them to easily learn languages. Formal education in the first century was rather scarce and not available to many and certainly would not have included education on learning foreign languages.

    • Marchello

      Kavik, are you trying to re-write the Bible? This theory is a spectacular fail. Maybe someone will believe it.

      KAVIK: In summary, as far as Pentecost is concerned, there really was no language miracle (i.e. xenoglossia) and certainly no ecstatic utterances. It was simply the disciples prophesying and teaching in the common languages of Aramaic and Greek…

      What the Bible says:

      KJV 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

      RSV 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

      AMPLIFIED 8 Then how is it that we hear, each of us, in our own (particular) dialect to which we were born?

      LIVING BIBLE 8 and yet we hear them speaking all the native languages of the lands where we were born!

      THE MESSAGE Then when they heard, one after another, their own mother tongues being spoken, they were thunderstruck. They couldn’t for the life of them figure out what was going on, and kept saying, “Aren’t these all Galileans? How come we’re hearing them talk in our various mother tongues?

      THE VOICE 8 How in the world do we all hear our native languages being spoken? 9 Look—there are Parthians here, and Medes, Elamites, Mesopotamians, and Judeans, residents of Cappadocia, Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygians and Pamphylians, Egyptians and Libyans from Cyrene, Romans including both Jews by birth and converts, 11 Cretans, and Arabs. We’re each, in our own languages, hearing these people talk about God’s powerful deeds.

  • Kavik

    In light of Pentecost, I have revamped one of the sections in my study and show it below…. Due to length, it must be done in two parts.

    PART 1

    The next section deals with defining “tongues” as referenced in the Bible – what exactly is meant; real language or ecstatic speech? What are “other tongues” and “divers tongues”?

    Up to now, I have been discussing the phenomenon of modern glossolalia; what it is and what it is not. What about tongues in the Bible? There are two main passages that proponents refer to for tongues; Acts and Corinthians. Upon close examination through the eyes of sociolinguistics, there is only one conclusion one may draw – Biblical “tongues” refer to real human languages, not to the ecstatic speech of modern Pentecostal/Charismatic glossolalia.

    I will start with Pentecost since, for many, this is where it all began…

    In reading the Biblical account of what transpired on Pentecost, it is rather obvious that this is not the same phenomenon as the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic “speaking in tongues”. Those gathered heard them speaking real languages understood by those present.

    The description of the event is, at first glance, virtually an ancient ‘textbook example’ of what is known as xenoglossia or xenoglossy – the ability to speak in a REAL language the speaker has in no way, shape or form ever been exposed to.

    Some will argue that the miracle was one of hearing, not speaking – people heard them in their own languages.

    With respect to what transpired however, there is a very viable alternative which, if given serious consideration, completely negates the need of a language miracle (xenoglossia) or ecstatic speech (glossolalia).

    In the below, I am paraphrasing here and there from a few articles written by Robert Zerhusen on the events of Pentecost and Corinthians through the eyes of sociolinguistics. What is interesting to me as a Linguist is that in my study, I drew the very same conclusions before I knew of Zerhusen’s articles. I think it lends support that two completely independent studies can draw the same conclusion; that the modern Christian concept of tongues simply doesn’t hold under careful examination.

    We are told in Acts that there were Jews from “every nation under heaven” gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost. The narrative goes on to state specifically where those visiting Jerusalem were from, i.e. it lists various locations. Upon closer scrutiny, this list may be broken down into geographic places (10) and ethnic groups (5). Further, ‘every nation under heaven’ (i.e. Diaspora Jews) is not to be taken literally, but rather for the idiomatic expression in the context in which it was written; i.e. referring to the locations mentioned in the list.

    It is critical to note that nowhere does the narrative specifically mention what languages these people spoke.

    This has led many over the ages to assume that each location and ethnic group referenced in the narrative had its own specific language or languages; it was just naturally assumed that the Diaspora Jews spoke a dozen or so languages which the disciples were not at all familiar with. Depending on the source, numbers range from about a dozen to almost twenty or more.

    Examining Acts through the eye of sociolinguistics, we discover a whole new understanding of the narrative which casts new light on the concept of ‘tongues’ with respect to Acts and Pentecost.

    The masses of “devout Jews” referred to in Acts may be divided into two groups: those that lived in Palestine/Israel (Group 1) and those of the Diaspora (Group 2). The bulk of the crowd would have most likely consisted of those from Group 1 since they lived the closest to Jerusalem or in the city itself.

    This is analogous to having some sort of say “International Conference of Linguists” in Boston. The bulk of attendees would come from the New England area since it’s not far for them to travel, and a good majority of them already live there. Lesser and lesser percentages of attendees would come from further and further away from Boston, with the smallest percentage coming from abroad.

    In other words, as far as Pentecost is concerned, the majority of “attendees” by far would have been people living right in Jerusalem and the surrounding area. The native language of all of these people? Aramaic.

    Turning to the Diaspora (those Jews living outside of Israel/Palestine), most scholars differentiate between eastern Diaspora and western Diaspora. One of the differentiations between the two is the native languages spoken. The people of the western Diaspora lived in areas around the Mediterranean basin that had been very heavily Hellenized for centuries. The primary language of western Diaspora Jews was simply Greek. Those Jews of the eastern Diaspora spoke Aramaic as their native language.

    In a nutshell, the crowds gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost would have spoken two languages; Greek and Aramaic.

    Also critical to note is that nowhere in the narrative does it state that the languages spoken were unlearned by the disciples.

  • Oliver Low CSM

    I’ve heard both the learned behaviour and also something genuine. It’s linguistically distinct from talking and different brain regions are active, as discovered by Newberg et al in 2006. Unfortunately they didn’t brain-scan people exhibiting the “fake” kind for comparison.
    My own experience was involuntary speaking in tongues, rather forcing me to believe in it.
    But it does seem to be a bit of a craze.

  • Kavik

    Mario –

    No, I don’t believe you could be cursing God, or anyone else for that matter, as the “words” you are speaking when practicing glossolalia have no meaning in and of them self; it is simply random free-vocalization.

    “Tongues” had to be interpreted because they were real languages – if you didn’t speak that particular language, you had no idea what the speaker was saying. As I understand it, early worship was not done as it is now (i.e. a “mass” or “service” type setting); people simply spoke out, prayed, worshiped and, as some put it, “testified”.

    Though I would argue that most people probably had some working knowledge of Greek, particularly in Corinth, it’s much easier to pray/worship in your native language.

    A thought just occurred to me though – I have to wonder if perhaps another reason why interpretation (read ‘translation’) was required was to ensure that the church was not being defiled in some way by these “foreigners”. I have to think that people back then viewed foreigners the same way some people do today – often times with a degree of suspicion (simply because they don’t understand them or their culture). That was just a quick random thought – no clue if there’s any truth to it.

    • mario

      No, I don’t believe you could be cursing God, or anyone else for that matter.

      IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, WHO KNOWS WHAT ONE IS SAYING ? WHAT ARE THE OTHER SPIRITUALS SAYING ?

      1 Corinthians 13: 2 “You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. ”

      So if one speaking by the Spirit of God CAN NOT call Jesus accursed THEN ONE NOT SPEAKING BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD CAN CALL JESUS ACCURSED ?

      • Kavik

        The point is that you’re not saying anything – glossolalia is not language in any way shape or form. Paul in Corinthians is referring to real language(s).

        (I obviously hit the “submit” button way too many times in my earlier response – I seem to have triple posted.)

  • Kavik

    Mario –

    No, I don’t believe you could be cursing God, or anyone else for that matter, as the “words” you are speaking when practicing glossolalia have no meaning in and of them self; it is simply random free-vocalization.

    “Tongues” had to be interpreted because they were real languages – if you didn’t speak that particular language, you had no idea what the speaker was saying. As I understand it, early worship was not done as it is now (i.e. a “mass” or “service” type setting); people simply spoke out, prayed, worshiped and, as some put it, “testified”.

    Though I would argue that most people probably had some working knowledge of Greek, particularly in Corinth, it’s much easier to pray/worship in your native language.

    A thought just occurred to me though – I have to wonder if perhaps another reason why interpretation (read ‘translation’) was required was to ensure that the church was not being defiled in some way by these “foreigners”. I have to think that people back then viewed foreigners the same way some people do today – often times with a degree of suspicion (simply because they don’t understand them or their culture). That was just a quick random thought – no clue if there’s any truth to it.

  • Kavik

    As to some examples of non-Christian practitioners of glossolalia…..

    In an article in the Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation entitled “An Ethnological Study of Glossolalia” by George J. Jennings, March 1968. Jennings observes that glossolalia is practiced among the following non-Christian religions of the world; the Peyote cult among the North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, Shamans in the Sudan, the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa, the Shago cult in Trinidad, the Voodoo cult in Haiti, the Aborigines of South American and Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia, the Shamans in Greenland, the Dyaks of Borneo, the Zor cult of Ethiopia, the Siberian shamans, the Chaco Indians of South America, the Curanderos of the Andes, the Kinka in the African Sudan, the Thonga shamans of Africa, and the Tibetan monks.

    The above are just a few examples – one can also add the original “shamans” of Siberia (the Evenki people for example), native Inuit shamans of Greenland, the list goes on and they are all doing essentially the exact same thing as Christian “tongue-speakers”.

    • mario

      I agree with your comment

      As mentioned in previous replies. If anyone wants to indulge in the unknown, one should read what the bible actually says about the subject “speaking in tongues” is an example. People who are taught how to speak or speak in tongues naturally, the question such people should ask themselves

      IF TONGUES IS ALSO PRACTICED IN OTHER RELIGIONS THAT DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOUR, “COULD I BE CURSING GOD” AS SOME OF THE CORITHIANS WERE DOING. HOW CAN WE KNOW IF ITS FROM GOD OR NOT.

      Ask yourself why did “tongues” had to be interpreted in the church ? So we could know if they were worshiping Satan or God ?

      • Kavik

        No, I don’t believe you could be cursing God, or anyone else for that matter, as the “words” you are speaking when practicing glossolalia have no meaning in and of them self; it is simply random free-vocalization.

        “Tongues” had to be interpreted because they were real languages – if you didn’t speak that particular language, you had no idea what the speaker was saying. As I understand it, early worship was not done as it is now (i.e. a “mass” or “service” type setting); people simply spoke out, prayed, worshiped and, as some put it, “testified”.

        Though I would argue that most people probably had some working knowledge of Greek, particularly in Corinth, it’s much easier to pray/worship in your native language.

        A thought just occurred to me though – I have to wonder if perhaps another reason why interpretation (read ‘translation’) was required was to ensure that the church was not being defiled in some way by these “foreigners”. I have to think that people back then viewed foreigners the same way some people do today – often times with a degree of suspicion (simply because they don’t understand them or their culture). That was just a quick random thought – no clue if there’s any truth to it.

      • Marchello

        Mario you seem not to understand the clear Bible teaching on this topic. I have posted answers for you, straight from the Bible, and you still continue with the same question!

        Here is what the Bible says. If you are a Christian you need to prayerfully consider what it says.

        1 Corinthians 12:3
        Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

        Amplified Version Luke 12:10
        And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit [that is, whoever intentionally discredits the Holy Spirit by attributing the authenticating miracles done by Me to Satan], it will not be forgiven him [for him there is no forgiveness].

        Mario this is what you claim: that Christians are cursing Christ and worshipping Satan when they pray in tongues.

  • Kavik

    Marchello,

    Let me start by saying I’m not debating whether or not the “gifts of the Holy Spirit” are still around or not – people may believe whatever they wish; I’m not a Pentecostal nor a Charismatic Christian so that whole debate as to whether these ‘gifts’ stopped with the apostolic age or not is completely irrelevant to me – as far as I’m concerned, it’s just various Pentecostal/Charismatic and other Christian paths trying to justify practicing their particular beliefs or arguing back and forth why their neighbors should stop practicing a particular belief.

    Your quote –

    The operative word here is “modern”. The ecstatic utterances of modern Pentecostal/Charismatic tongues did come about around the same time. Charles Parham’s ‘tongues as real languages’ was an epic fail and the movement essentially revamped their entire take on “tongues” – they needed another explanation for what they were practicing since it became painfully obvious real languages was not it – the end result was the modern Pentecostal “re-definition”, so to speak, of tongues as “heavenly languages” or “prayer languages”. It just seems somewhat coincidental that this happened right about the time that things like spiritualism, esoteric studies/arts, started becoming popular here and in Europe.

    As to the link you provided, there is very little in it that actually relates to glossolalia – what there is, with the exception of one or two references, clearly refers to real language, not the ecstatic utterances of the modern Pentecostals/Charismatic movement. Again though very historical, it can be argued it’s all hearsay and in a few instances, it looks like the people in question were exposed to the target languages they were supposedly speaking (the woman speaking German, for example).

    Most of what the article seems to refer to is so-called “faith healing”, which also exists (though not called the same thing) in many other cultures. It’s practiced very differently, but essentially the same thing. Reiki comes to mind with respect to “laying on of hands” (though in Reiki the practitioner’s hands do not need to physically touch the ‘‘patient”).

    Because this was originally a study intended solely for my own use, I do not give references – I didn’t need then at the time the study was done as I was the only one who was ever going to use and refer to it – it really was not intended to go any further than my own notes.

    I would suggest the books written by William Samarin and Felicitas Goodman dealing with their studies on glossolalia – Samarin takes a Linguistic approach, Goodman a more cultural approach. Goodman’s book is called “Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study of Glossolalia” and one of Samarin’s is “Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism”. You should be able to find excerpts from them online.

    • Marchello

      Kavik, I at least gave you one reference/link/source as part of my claims. Something you did not do ONCE in your lengthy essay.

      That link, as I said, was simply a ‘starter’ for further study. The gift of tongues is part of a wider discussion among Christian as to whether any or all Spiritual Gifts have continued or ended.

      Here again is more information on the history ‘speaking in tongues’ – a practice which clearly has not risen at the same time as Spiritualism in the early 1900s – a theory so easily debunked, as is your latest theory (re: the tongues of Pentecost were only Aramaic and Greek).

      http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Glossolalia

      Church history

      Twentieth-century Pentecostalism was not the earliest instance of “speaking in tongues” in church history after the events described in Acts and Paul’s letters. Indeed, there were a number of recorded antecedents in several centuries of the Christian era, e.g.,

      Saint Augustine spoke of Christians who sang “in jubilation” in an unknown language.•150 C.E. –

      Justin Martyr wrote “For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time.” [1] and “Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.” [2]

      •156-172 – Montanus and his two prophetesses—Maximilla and Priscilla—spoke in tongues and saw this as evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit. (Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. (17),Book 3).

      •175 C.E. – Irenaeus of Lyons, in his treatise Against Heresies, speaks positively of those in the church “who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages.” [3]

      •circa 230 C.E. – Novatian said, “This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings… and thus make the Lord’s Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed.” [4]

      •circa 340 C.E. – Hilary of Poitiers, echoing Paul in 1 Corinthians, wrote, “For God hath set same in the Church, first apostles… secondly prophets… thirdly teachers… next mighty works, among which are the healing of diseases… and gifts of either speaking or interpreting diverse kinds of tongues.” [5]

      •circa 390 C.E. – Augustine of Hippo, in an exposition on Psalm 32, discusses a phenomenon contemporary to his time of those who “sing in jubilation,” not in their own language, but in a manner that “may not be confined by the limits of syllables.”[6].

      •475 – 1000 C.E. – During the so-called Dark Ages, little history was recorded although speaking in tongues may well have been practiced in certain times and places.

      •1100s – The heretical Waldenses and Albigenses, as well as certain of the orthodox Franciscans, all reportedly spoke in tongues. Saint Hildegard of Bingen is also reputed to have spoken and sung in tongues, and her spiritual songs were referred to by contemporaries as “concerts in the Spirit.”

      •1300s – The Moravians are referred to by detractors as having spoken in tongues. John Roche, a contemporary critic, claimed that the Moravians “commonly broke into some disconnected jargon, which they often passed upon the vulgar, ‘as the exuberant and resistless Evacuations of the Spirit.'”[7].

      •1600s – The Camisards also spoke sometimes in languages that were unknown: “Several persons of both sexes,” James Du Bois of Montpellier recalled, “I have heard in their Extasies pronounce certain words, which seem’d to the Standers-by, to be some Foreign Language.” These utterances were sometimes accompanied by the gift of interpretation.[8]

      •1600s – Early Quakers, such as Edward Burrough, make mention of tongues speaking in their meetings: “We spoke with new tongues, as the Lord gave us utterance, and His Spirit led us.”[9].
      •1700s – John Wesley and Methodism. Wesleyan revivals across Europe and North America included many reportedly miraculous events, including speaking in tongues. [10]

      •1800s – Edward Irving and the Catholic Apostolic Church. Edward Irving, a minister in the Church of Scotland, wrote of a woman who would “speak at great length, and with superhuman strength, in an unknown tongue, to the great astonishment of all who heard.”[11]. Irving further stated that “tongues are a great instrument for personal edification, however mysterious it may seem to us.”

      And so poor Kavik you have much history now to rewrite! lol

      • mario

        Can we say for sure that Speaking in tongues mentioned in your comments are all from the gifts of the Holy Spirit ? OR from another source ?

        IF you do not know what you are saying could you be cursing God without knowing it, like the Corinthian church.

        Why would God give the false religions also the same tongue? There are various churches that speak in an unknown tongue, is this tongue from God or Satan; therefore if you do not understand the tongue you may even be worshiping a false God.

        • Marchello

          Mario, no doubt there are counterfeit ‘tongues’, false prophets, false Christians and false doctrines within false churches. Is it ALL fake? I don’t believe it is.

          People should ‘search the scriptures’ and see what the early Christians taught and compare that to what has been ADDED over the centuries.
          (Ever heard of ‘infant baptism’? The early church hadn’t! They only baptized adults who could confess their faith in Jesus Christ.)

          So, yes of course there can be fake practices in Christianity.

          Mario do you believe that ANY ‘gift of tongues’ could be of God, or is it all fake to you? Come out of the shadows Mario. What religion are you if any?

          Jesus said in Luke 11.
          11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

          Are you saying that when a person asks for the Holy Spirit that Satan actually outmuscles God and gets in first? Will they end up with a scorpion? Is Satan more powerful than God?
          Mario, you are giving far too much credit to Satan.

          John said: “My loved ones, I warn you: do not trust every spirit. Instead, examine them carefully to determine if they come from God, because the corrupt world is filled with the voices of many false prophets. 1 JOHN 4:1 (The Voice Bible)

          I will answer your question on why there are ‘tongues’ in other religions at another time. Suffice to say that other religions also have prophets, doctrines and rituals. Should Christianity reject all these things because they exist in other religions? Hardly.

          • mario

            Christianity can have whatever gifts God has given them. But The word of God is the standard by which we are to judge all doctrines, What God says or gives or does not. (Isa. 8:20; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

            IF GOD SAID THAT THE GIFT OF TONGUES (earthly languages) WOULD CEASE AND THEY DID, WOULD GOD GO AGAINST HIS WORD AND MAKE TONGUES HAPPEN AGAIN ? DO YOU THINK HE WILL ?

            If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

            OUR HEAVENLY FATHER WOULD NOT GIVE HIS SON THE BAD THINGS ABOVE, BUT WE HAVE TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH OF WHO IS ONE’S REAL FATHER.

            Are Christian in the Bible is ever commanded to pray, preach, sing, or praise God in tongues (special pray language) .

            Many “seducing spirits” are in the world and it is every Christian’s duty to “try” these spirits (1 Tim. 4:1; I Jhn. 4:1; Rev. 2:2).

            Should Christianity reject all these things because they exist in other religions? Hardly.

            NO NOT REJECT EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS IN OTHER RELIGIONS BUT REJECT EVERYTHING THAT IS CONTRARY TO THE WORD OF GOD.
            Teaching the Scriptural Truth about signs, healing, and tongues is not a matter of being mean, prejudiced, or intolerant. It is simply a matter of obeying the command to RIGHTLY DIVIDE God’s word (2 Tim. 2:15)

            • Marchello

              Mario

              Please…before you post again, read SOMETHING about spiritual gifts during the history of Christianity or even during the Reformation. You can deny modern Pentecostalism but you cannot deny ALL of church history… or maybe you can! lol It’s anything goes here.

              You are a ‘cessationist’ that is clear. But I really hope your claim that ‘tongues will cease’ is based on MUCH more than ONE verse taken OUT OF CONTEXT.

              I Corinthians 13 v 8 “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, THEY SHALL CEASE; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”

              When shall tongues cease? Verse 10: “But when that which is PERFECT is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

              There is only one ‘perfect’ one and it is not the church, or the Bible, etc. It is Jesus Christ and his promised return to this troubled world.

              The WHOLE passage (verses 8 to 13) repeat the same idea. Here are 3 translations that should help you understand what Paul was trying to explain.

              AMPLIFIED

              8 Love never fails [it never fades nor ends]. But as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for the gift of special knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part [for our knowledge is fragmentary and incomplete]. 10 But when that which is complete and perfect comes, that which is incomplete and partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now [in this time of imperfection] we see in a mirror dimly [a blurred reflection, a riddle, an enigma], but then [when the time of perfection comes we will see reality] face to face. Now I know in part [just in fragments], but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known [by God]. 13 And now there remain: faith [abiding trust in God and His promises], hope [confident expectation of eternal salvation], love [unselfish love for others growing out of God’s love for me], these three [the choicest graces]; but the greatest of these is love.

              THE LIVING BIBLE

              8 All the special gifts and powers from God will someday come to an end, but love goes on forever. Someday prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge—these gifts will disappear. 9 Now we know so little, even with our special gifts, and the preaching of those most gifted is still so poor. 10 But when we have been made perfect and complete, then the need for these inadequate special gifts will come to an end, and they will disappear.
              11 It’s like this: when I was a child I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I became a man my thoughts grew far beyond those of my childhood, and now I have put away the childish things. 12 In the same way, we can see and understand only a little about God now, as if we were peering at his reflection in a poor mirror; but someday we are going to see him in his completeness, face-to-face. Now all that I know is hazy and blurred, but then I will see everything clearly, just as clearly as God sees into my heart right now.
              13 There are three things that remain—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

              THE MESSAGE

              8-10 Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.
              11 When I was an infant at my mother’s breast, I gurgled and cooed like any infant. When I grew up, I left those infant ways for good.
              12 We don’t yet see things clearly. We’re squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won’t be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We’ll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us!
              13 But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.

              Now in this context keep reading the next verse and remember the chapters don’t exist in the original manuscripts.

              14Living Bible (TLB)
              1 Corinthians 14 v 1 “Let love be your greatest aim; nevertheless, ask also for the special abilities the Holy Spirit gives, and especially the gift of prophecy, being able to preach the messages of God.”

              KJV
              “Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.”

              Paul teaches that Christians should ‘desire spiritual gifts’. Or do you want to rip that chapter out!? Is that what you mean by rightly dividing the Word?

              • mario

                Should discuss partion at a time ? Please…before you post again, read SOMETHING about spiritual gifts during the history of Christianity or even during the Reformation. You can deny modern Pentecostalism but you cannot deny ALL of church history… or maybe you can! lol It’s anything goes here.

                AFTER SOME OF THE SIGN GIFTS FAILED, VANISH AWAY AND CEASED AS THE BIBLE SAID THEY WOULD. IF WE LOOK AT CHURCH HISTORY JUST ON TONGUES, YES THERE WAS TONGUES LONG BEFORE WE HEARD ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK OF ACTS. BUT ONE CAN NOT OVERLOOK THAT SPEAKING IN TONGUES WAS PRACTICED BY EVIL IDOL WORSHIPPERS. SO READING HISTORY ACCOUNTS WE MUST BARE BE IN MIND THAT NOT ALL TONGUES ARE FROM GOD.

                TONGUES WAS AND IS practiced among the following non-Christian religions of the world; the Peyote cult among the North American Indians, the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest, Shamans in the Sudan, the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa, the Shago cult in Trinidad, the Voodoo cult in Haiti, the Aborigines of South American and Australia, the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia, the Shamans in Greenland and the Tibetan monks.

                The above are just a few examples –the list goes on and they are all doing essentially the exact same thing as Christian “tongue-speakers”.

                Satan can also have people talk in tongues also, and we need to carefully consider that when we talk about the gift of tongues.

                OUT OF THE 9 GIFTS WHY WOULD PAUL ONLY MENTION THAT 3 WOULD STOP OR CEASE ? WHY NOT ALL THE GIFTS CEASE WITH YOUR INTERPRETATION WHEN THE “PERFECT” COMES ?
                WHY ONLY TONGUES, PROPHECY AND KNOWLEDGE ?

                You are a ‘cessationist’ that is clear.

                NOT COMPLETELY A CESSATIONIST IF I CAN FIND OUT THAT IT IS NOT TRUE ACCORDING TO THE WORD.

                But I really hope your claim that ‘tongues will cease’ is based on MUCH more than ONE verse taken OUT OF CONTEXT.

                I Corinthians 13 v 8 “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, THEY SHALL CEASE; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”

                WHY WOULD THESE 3 SIGN GIFTS CEASE IN DIFFERENT WAYS ? Does it refer to different time periods ? OR DOES FAIL, VANISH AWAY AND CEASE mean the same thing ?

                1) Prophecies, they SHALL FAIL.
                2) Knowledge SHALL VANISH AWAY.”
                3) Tongues SHALL CEASE?

                JUST LOOKING AT PROPHECIES SHALL FAIL. WHY WOULD THEY FAIL as per YOUR INTERPRETATION JESUS HAS COME. WHAT WOULD MAKE PROPHECIES FAIL WHEN THE PERFECT JUSUS is here ? ?

                Verse 10: “But when that which is PERFECT is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

                WHEN PAUL WAS WRITING to the CORINTHIANS HE DID NOT HAVE THE FULL REVELATION OF GODS WORD as he would have by the time THE BOOK OF REVELATION was witten. HE WROTE MANY BOOKS AFTER CORINTHIANS AND HE RECEIEVED MORE KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECIES AS HE CONTINUED TO WRITE THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE. SO AT THE STAGE OF 1 AND 2 CORINTHIANS PAUL ONLY NEW THESE THINGS IN PARTS AS HE HAD NOT HAD FULL REVELATION. ONCE ALL THE books of the BIBLE WERE WRITTEN THEN THAT WHICH WAS IN PART SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH.

                James 1:25 “For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the PERFECT LAW , the law of LIBERTY, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

                James 2;12 “So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the LAW OF LIBERTY.”

                WHEN DID THE “PERFECT” LAW OF LIBERTY COME ? WHEN ALL THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE WERE WRITTEN ? JESUS IS NOT GOING TO JUDGE US ON WHAT YOU OR I BELIEVE WHAT SALVATION IS, WE ARE GOING TO BE JUDGED BY WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT SALVATION IS.

                2 Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God MAY BE COMPLETE, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

                WE CAN BECOME THE PERFECT MAN AS WE KNOW ALL THERE IS TO KNOW IN THE WORD.

                There is only one ‘perfect’ one and it is not the church, or the Bible, etc. It is Jesus Christ and his promised return to this troubled world.

                THE GREEK WORD translated as “PERFECT” is the word “teleion”. It means something that is complete, perfect, whole, full-grown, ripe, mature, or adult. The word can be used in the nominative or accusative form, it refers to a single thing, and can refer to something that is either masculine or neuter. The fact that it is “that which is perfect” and not “he who is perfect” indicates that we are referring to a thing (neuter) AND NOT A PERSON.

                The WHOLE passage (verses 8 to 13) repeat the same idea. Here are 3 translations that should help you understand what Paul was trying to explain.

                AMPLIFIED
                8 Love never fails [it never fades nor ends]. But as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for the gift of special knowledge, it will pass away.

                FIRSTLY WE START WITH ALL THE GIFTS NOW WHAT HAPPENS TO 3 OF THE GIFTS ? ONE SHALL FAIL, THE OTHER SHALL VANISH AWAY. AND THE OTHER SHALL CEASE?

                9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part [for our knowledge is fragmentary and incomplete].

                AS EXPLAINED ABOVE PAUL ONLY KNEW IN PART WHEN HE WROTE CORINTHIANS AS HE HAD RECEIVED THE FULL COMPLETE WHOLE AS HE HAD NOT WRITTEN ALL THE OTHER BOOKS OF THE BIBLE YET.

                10 But when that which is complete and perfect comes, that which is incomplete and partial will pass away.

                VERSE 10 IS JESUS “when that which is complete and perfect comes” WHEN WAS JESUS COMPLETE ?

                11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

                EXAMPLE OF LEANING MORE AND MORE AS GOD GAVE PAUL MORE AND MORE REVELATION.

                12 For now [in this time of imperfection] we see in a mirror dimly [a blurred reflection, a riddle, an enigma], but then [when the time of perfection comes we will see reality] face to face. Now I know in part [just in fragments], but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known [by God].

                13 And now there remain: faith [abiding trust in God and His promises], hope [confident expectation of eternal salvation], love [unselfish love for others growing out of God’s love for me], these three [the choicest graces]; but the greatest of these is love.

                SO IF YOU SAY THAT JESUS REFERS TO THE “PERFECT” THEN HOW CAN FAITH AND HOPE REMAIN WHEN JESUS HAS COME ? FAITH and HOPE IS NOT NEEDED WHEN JESUS IS HERE. WHY BECAUSE OUR FAITH AND HOPE HAS BEEN FULFILLED AT JESUS COMMING.

                THE ONLY GIFT THAT REMAINS WHEN JESUS COMES IS LOVE, WHY BECAUSE LOVE LASTS FOREVER. EVEN AFTER JESUS HAS COME BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE.

                Now in this context keep reading the next verse and remember the chapters don’t exist in the original manuscripts.

                14Living Bible (TLB)
                1 Corinthians 14 v 1 “Let love be your greatest aim; nevertheless, ask also for the special abilities the Holy Spirit gives, and especially the gift of prophecy, being able to preach the messages of God.”

                KJV
                “Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.”

                Paul teaches that Christians should ‘desire spiritual gifts’. Or do you want to rip that chapter out!? Is that what you mean by rightly dividing the Word?

                WHY DID PAUL WRITE TO THE CORINTHIANS? THEY WERE A DISGRACE TO GOD.

                NOT RIPING OUT ANY CHAPTER. Christians should ‘desire spiritual gifts’, YES NO PROBLEM THE BIBLE DOES NOT CONTRDICT ITSELF. THE TIME PAUL WROTE TO THE CHURCH AT CORINTH THE SIGN GIFTS WERE THERE AND OPERATING SO NO PROBLEM IN WHAT PAUL SAID. BUT PAUL ALSO SAID LET’S NOT FORGET THAT THE GIFTS WOULD SOON BE DONE AWAY WITH”.

                LET’S LOOK AT PAULS SIGN GIFTS OF HEALING. AS YOU KNOW PAUL HAD A POWERFULL HEALING MINISTRY. . BUT WHAT HAPPENED TOWARDS THE END OF PAULS MINISTRY.

                It is clear that the gift of healing has ceased because, as in Philippians, Paul was no longer able to heal, even his co-workers. Timothy was suffering stomach problems and frequent infirmities (1 Tim. 5:23) and Paul can’t heal him, doesn’t recommend that he go to a healer in the church, doesn’t send a prayer cloth or a bottle of anointing oil (remember the miracles of some 8 years earlier in Acts 19:11-12). Likewise in 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul has to leave behind his co-worker Trophimus who had fallen sick on the last journey. Paul’s gift of healing (Acts 28:9) was no longer operating in Philippians 2:27, 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20.

                JUST AN EXAMPLE SIGN GIFTS WERE FADING AWAY ?

              • mario

                Its just like John 3:16 ” For God so loved the world that HE gave his only begotten Son, whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life”

                We all take this scripture and believe it is for all in this entire World. BUT this verse is only talking to Israel not the whole we perceive today.

                So This point is related to point two in that many free will proponents confuse the meaning of choice and decision with their concept of free will.
                 
                So we see that because words can have varied meanings, depending upon the context in which they are used, we must from the outset establish exactly what it is we are discussing.

                What is your definition of FREE WILL

                Where the discussion of free will most frequently comes into play in churches today is in regard to a person’s ability to accept or reject the gospel. It is this area where we will focus our discussion.

  • God Knows

    I think your last sentence is a bit of an understatement: It should read “I’m not presenting you with an alternative opinion, but rather with hard solid scientific and biblical proof that it is not real.” Honestly, you nailed it!

    • Marchello

      No offence Kavik but you did not nail it.

      There are major factual errors (sorry ‘God Knows’ obviously you don’t know) of the existence of ‘spiritual gifts’ from the early church through the Middle and Dark Ages to the modern era.

      Kavik: “It is interesting to note that the whole concept of modern Pentecostal/Charismatic ‘tongues’ originated right about same the time that ‘spiritualism’ became popular in the US and Europe.”

      http://www.truthforthelastdays.com/baptismandgifts/baptismandgifts35.html

      The above link is a good start for researching the topic.

      I’m not offended by your article Kavik and you make some good points but you make dozens of assertions with zero references, no sources, no bibliography. It’s all YOUR opinion.
      This is a fail in ‘writing essays 101’.

      For example:

      Kavik: “From the many examples I have seen however, it is absolutely no different than how other faith traditions that practice glossolalia connect to their deities.”

      What examples Kavic? Please provide a source so I can check for myself. (Obviously not a problem for God Knows who swallows it all without need of a reference! lol)

      That’s enough for the moment. I’m off to pray in tongues! lol

  • Kavik

    PART 6 –

    Some Thoughts on Acts / Pentecost –

    In reading the Biblical account of what transpired on Pentecost, it is rather obvious that this is not the same phenomenon as the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic “speaking in tongues”.

    The description of the event is virtually an ancient ‘textbook example’ of what is known as xenoglossia or xenoglossy – the ability to speak in a REAL language the speaker has in no way, shape or form ever been exposed to.

    With respect to what transpired however, there are a few alternative possibilities which must be considered:

    It is possible the Pentecost narrative has a much less dramatic reality and was enhanced, as stories often are, long before ever being committed to writing, eventually becoming the version we have today.

    We are told that there were Jews from all over gathered in Jerusalem. If we look at the countries mentioned, almost all are within the Mediterranean basin, a very heavily Hellenized area – virtually everyone would have had some familiarity with Greek in various degrees; it was in many respects the ‘English’ of its day.

    It is quite possible it was simply just the apostles preaching to the people in Greek, and the story was enhanced to how we have it recorded today (people hearing them in their local native languages).

    The true miracle here may have simply been the apostles finding the courage to go out and preach; these were, we are told, people supposedly literally in fear of their lives behind locked doors after the execution of their leader, Jesus. The gift of the Spirit may have been simply the courage for them to overcome this fear. The language used to speak to the masses simply Greek – understood in various degrees by virtually everyone in the Greco-Roman world. See part 5 regarding how Jews regarded praising and praying to “their” God in a language other than Hebrew.

    Another possibility to consider which is frequently argued is that it was not a miracle of speaking so much as one of hearing – these people HEARD them in their various native languages.

    With regard to xenoglossia, the fact is, is that there are today no known solid, provable cases – upon closer scrutiny and examination, even the best known cases have proven not to be true examples of xenoglossia as all speakers were at some time or another exposed to the target language they were exhibiting in their xenoglossy.

    Despite the above, the Pentecostal/Charismatic community is rife with occurrences of xenoglossy. Unfortunately, most examples reported are not backed by any details or specifics – it amounts to essentially nothing more than general hearsay and, I suspect, people thinking that what they are speaking is such-and-such a language. In a way it is kind of too bad – a few well documented cases to study would be welcomed.

    What is very noticeable in Pentecostal/ Charismatic circles is that Hebrew and/or Aramaic seem to be THE “go to” language(s) for supposed instances of xenoglossia. Such instances are always accompanied by an all too common story of how/where it occurred. At their core, they are all the same underlying story. For all intents and purposes, “the story” has been built up and developed over the past several years to almost urban legend status amongst the Pentecostal/Charismatic community.

    The underlying core story can be quickly summarized as follows: an individual (usually a preacher) is speaking in tongues to a crowd. Very conveniently in the crowd there always seems to be this one Jewish guy (or lady) who, of course, recognizes the ‘tongue’ as Hebrew/Aramaic and comments to the pastor afterwards, the pastor having, of course, no clue he was speaking in said language.

    As the saying goes, if I had a dollar for every version and variation of this story I have heard……

    The ‘story’ is problematic and rather dubious on several levels: Why a person of the Jewish faith (presumably a practicing Jew) would be found attending a Pentecostal/Charismatic Christian meeting/service in the first place just begs a slew of questions. Most practicing Jews, unless from Israel and speak Modern Hebrew as their native or second language, typically only have a cursory knowledge of (Biblical) Hebrew and even less Aramaic.

    Hebrew and Aramaic are only used in prayers which are usually learned by rote; the same way pre- Vatican II Catholics learned common prayers in Latin. Many Jews I personally know can read Hebrew (they learnt to do so for their bar/bat mitzvahs), but have no clue what they’re actually reading/saying.

    These “tongues being realized as Hebrew/Aramaic” stories are frankly, rather sketchy at best. It is interesting to note that it always seems to be some more obscure, lesser known (i.e. more unverifiable by multiple speakers) language; it is never a more common language like German, French, or Spanish (though there have been a few cases of Spanish reported).

    If such claims are to ever be taken seriously, they need to be considerably more well documented than what amounts to just hearsay as this just serves to hype up the validity of tongues, but I’m not sure the nature of glossolalia/xenoglossia would allow for a controlled study as the speaker would need to produce the language more or less on the spot.

    Many Christian practitioners will also claim or argue that they are speaking the language of angels or “angelic languages”. This too is problematic in that in traditional Jewish belief, angels speak only one language: Hebrew. This is commented on in the Mishnah (official commentaries on the Torah). The belief, according to the Mishnah, is that if a person wishes to pray, s/he can pray to an angel who will deliver the message to God (remember the meaning of ‘angel’ is ‘messenger’), but for this to happen, the prayer must be said in Hebrew, not in (what at one time was the more vernacular language) Aramaic.

    The reason for this, according to Jewish belief (and also commented upon in the Mishnah) is that angels do not understand Aramaic. Thus too, if one wishes to bypass the angels and have the prayer go directly to God, the person prays in Aramaic. Indeed, some Jewish traditional prayers are still specifically recited in Aramaic to this day.

    Some commentaries in the Mishnah opine that angels do in fact understand Aramaic; they just do not hold the language in very high regard. Thus, if they hear a prayer in Aramaic, they are likely to ignore it as it is not considered to be of much value. This opinion is not shared by the majority of believers however; more common is the belief that angels simply do not understand Aramaic as they speak only Hebrew.

    Still other comments found in the Mishnah state that each of the seventy nations mentioned in Genesis had an angel assigned to that nation (Israel’s for example, was Michael) and that angel spoke only the language of that country and no other.

    Obviously, in this case and in traditional Hebrew belief (the belief that the apostles would have grown up in), there is only one angelic language, and it’s a real language at that: Hebrew. To assert that tongues are the “language of angels” is simply nonsense. Further, the only instances in the Bible where angels are speaking, they are speaking in a real language to human beings.

    If one wants to go even one step further and get somewhat esoteric, angels are pure spirit, some would say ‘light beings’; if indeed they do communicate with one another, one may be quite assured it is most definitely not by anything that could even remotely be construed as (human) language.

    The fact that Jews believe that angels speak only one language gives some additional insight into the concept of prayer in a given religion only being able to be offered in one (maybe two) language(s) at most. See the comment on Corinthians further down.

    PART 7 –

    A Few Thoughts on Corinthians –

    As far as people quoting Corinthians as support of Christian glossolalia – as one writer put it….

    “1 Cor.12-14 – This passage sequence seems to be the general ‘go to’ for evidencing glossolalia, however, Paul is referring to real normal human languages here, not glossolalia. Essentially he is simply saying that if a person prays in a language (real language native to that person) and no one else in the general audience understands that language, then it does no good to the people listening as no one can understand what is being said except God. Therefore, if a person were to do that, what s/he is saying should be translated into the vernacular so that all may understand and benefit.

    There are a number of analyses done on this passage in comparing the words used for ‘language/tongues’ (and words added to the passage in subsequent translations over the centuries) in which all draw the same conclusion; namely, that ‘tongues’ are real normal human languages being discussed. To paraphrase a bit from an article written about the ‘tongues’ described in Paul’s letter:

    “Paul is not a proponent of speech that is not understandable (1 Cor. 14:9) and in 1 Cor.14:10 states that no language is without meaning. Glossolalia does not fit his definition of language. He insists that whenever foreign languages are spoken in prayer, they should be translated. Throughout the whole, he is talking about real languages with real meaning. Paul’s overriding message throughout this whole chapter is that everything done in the public worship service is supposed to be edifying to the hearers. That is his key point. He is calling for intelligibility. He is appealing for clarity. When we say something in public worship, the people in the congregation need to understand the message.”

    Further, for a Jew, there was only one language in which to pray to God; Hebrew, the liturgical language of the Jewish faith – already a dead language in Paul’s time as Jews in what is now Israel spoke Aramaic. Jews spoke whatever language was spoken in the land where they lived (the Jews in Exodus for example were all speakers of Egyptian). By the time of the New Testament, many would have also spoken some Greek as well as Latin. When they went to Temple however, Hebrew was the language they prayed in as it was deemed the language of God and his people.

    “Tongues” (i.e. other languages, particularly Gentile languages most of which were completely unknown to most Jews living what is now Israel), the author states, changed all that.

    “For the first time ever, inspired truth was revealed by God in languages other than Hebrew. This in and of itself was a remarkable sign (some would say a miraculous sign), not only to the unbelieving Gentile hearers, but also to the unbelieving Jews. For the unbelieving Jews, it was a sign of judgement to come (Isaiah 28:11). Paul paraphrases that verse in 1 Cor. 14:21, just before saying that ‘tongues’ (foreign languages) are a sign to unbelievers. His primary meaning, then, is that tongues are a sign of judgment against the unbelieving Israelites and a token of divine grace to the Gentile unbelievers who hear the message in their own tongues/languages. So again we see that the gift of tongues was God’s declaration that the wall of partition had been broken down. Although the oracles of God had once been committed to the Jewish race alone (in Hebrew), now the message about God’s wonderful works would extend to every nation, people, and tribe. That was the primary significance of the “gift of tongues”; simply God’s message being delivered to Gentiles in their own languages. The phenomenon of glossolalia was never intended here; a pseudo-language that no one, usually including even the speaker, understood. “

    Biblical “tongues” (‘glossa’ in Greek) as referenced particularly in Acts and Corinthians is to always be translated and understood as real language(s), not ecstatic utterances. The word ‘tongue’ as it appears in the KJV of the Bible would, when written in the 1600’s, have been understood by anyone reading it to mean a ‘(real) language’. In the English of the 1600’s the word ‘tongue’ was simply the common man’s way of referring to a language. Further, the word ‘unknown’ frequently found in front of ‘tongue(s)’ was an addition to the KJV and was never in the original Greek. So more properly translated, where the KJV has “unknown tongue”, it should be understood to be simply “(foreign) language”. Paul’s quote of “though I speak with the tongues of men and angles…” is simply a hyperbole he used for emphasis in trying to get his point across to his audience – in traditional Jewish belief angles are said to speak only one language (and a real one at that): Hebrew. As one writer put it “In the Greek, it literally reads: “If with the tongues of men I speak and of angels.” That construction is unique and occurs only here in the New Testament. The grammar suggests that Paul intentionally separated the tongues of men from the tongues of angels, articulating the normal expression of the gift of foreign languages before emphatically inserting a hypothetical hyperbole.”

    What one must understand is that in many ancient cultures (in this case the Jewish culture) the language of prayer was very specific. Something we really don’t have today so it’s hard to relate to. In many cultures, when you prayed, you prayed in one specific prescribed language…period. For Jews, this was Hebrew. To do so in another language was simply unheard of and unthinkable (though Aramaic was allowed in some cases for some prayers). As odd and even nonsensical as it sounds to us today, for a Jew at that time, to hear someone praising or praying to THEIR God in say Galatian or Assyrian, or even Greek for that matter, would have been utterly shocking.

    Another way of looking at it is that, for example, I could teach you a poem or perhaps even a short song (or both) in say, Welsh, and you could learn it and recite/sing it perfectly well, even to near native fluency with enough practice, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you understand Welsh or even exactly one word of what you’re actually saying/singing. As Paul states, “your spirit is praying/singing, but your understanding is unfruitful”. So, yes, “tongues” certainly can, and did, refer to real languages.

    As another writer put it, “Think of it this way; if I showed up at a Bible study and began to speak in German, but no one else in the room could speak German, I might impress a few people, but no one would understand me. So if I speak in a language that no one else in the room can speak, I am in fact not speaking to men, but to God (who alone can understand all languages). Anything I say would be a mystery to those in the room. That is what Paul was trying to convey. Paul was grateful they had this gift which was intended for unbelievers, but rebuked them for using it to edify themselves and not others.”

    He goes on to state, “The true manifestation of speaking to people in foreign languages was given regulations so that the church could be edified and remain united in love (1 Cor. 13:1). The main regulation was that in the church assembly another person must interpret the one speaking in a foreign language so that the church could understand and be edified (1 Cor. 14:26). Above all, love for other believers must take priority over all of the spiritual manifestations. If there is no love then the use of any of the true spiritual manifestations must be restricted.”

    It may also be argued too that in Corinth, one of the main pre-Christian temples was the Temple of Aphrodite – contemporary writers state that people used glossolalia as part of the religious practices/ceremonies at Corinth as a means of connecting to the goddess. This practice may have also been brought into the Christian church in Corinth, and Paul in his letters also attempts to correct the situation.

    After studying the phenomenon mainly from a linguistic and, to lesser extent, cultural perspective, and after analyzing many examples of spoken and transcribed glossolalia, I am forced to conclude that glossolalia is indeed very much a learned behavior – anyone, young or old, can learn to do it. With some that learning comes easier than for others. The more one is exposed to the phenomenon in various (typically religious) settings, the more easily it is produced and the more complex it can become.

    Simply stated, glossolalia/”speaking in tongues” is nothing more than an advanced form of word play done within the subconscious and its production by anyone may boil down to simply a matter of not being afraid to “play with sounds” – something almost anyone over the age of four or so has forgotten how to do.

    Glossolalia is almost always found in use in a religious context and its usage should be regarded as simply a tool by which the practitioner may connect to the divine (or for some, the spirit world), but in and of itself, glossolalia is neither divine nor miraculous.

    To sum up Christian glossolalia –

    For some Christians, glossolalia is a way for that person to become closer to God (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that). They are taught from a young age to believe that the tool (i.e. ‘tongues’) is the actual medium by which one speaks to God or God speaks/reveals to man. From the many examples I have seen however, it is absolutely no different than how other faith traditions that practice glossolalia connect to their deities. Tongues/Glossolalia is to these Christian believers a very real and spiritually meaningful phenomenon, but consisting of emotional release via non-linguistic ‘free vocalizations’ at best – the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech.

  • Kavik

    PART 9 (last) –

    What is again unique with the Christian version is that the glossolalist channels the ‘message’ of the Holy Spirit, the interpreter, with whom the glossolalist must also work with (in most cases), channels the message of the Holy Spirit into the local vernacular, thus interpreting the message channeled.

    As previously stated, the glossa/tongue itself is really almost irrelevant; it’s simply the tool by which the channeling is performed – the channeler could just as well be reciting a Tibetan meditation chant. In addition, neither the glossolalist nor the interpreter need be in a ‘trance’; this is conscious channeling, not trance channeling. Neither is in any more of a trance than a person would be say engrossed in reading a book.

    It is interesting to note that the whole concept of modern Pentecostal/Charismatic ‘tongues’ originated right about same the time that ‘spiritualism’ became popular in the US and Europe. Things such as channeling and séances were all the rage and quite popular events. Might it be argued that some Christians simply wanted to “jump on the bandwagon” and thus created their own brand of spirit challenging? I think an argument could indeed be made.

    The concept of Channeling however is generally frowned upon in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles for fear of channeling, as Pentecostals put it, “a demon or even the Devil himself”. In some circles it is not uncommon to even “test” tongues as it is believed that some are real and some are false/demonic.

    It should be noted, as stated further above, that if glossolalia is non-Christian, it is automatically deemed “demonic” in origin despite the fact it’s produced the exact same way. The most common test administered seems to be the so-called “McGraw test” which is rather elaborate in that the spirit who is “giving the tongue” is the entity that is actually questioned (sort of like an exorcism – the entity is questioned directly, not the practitioner/person possessed). I suspect this is the reason for the testing – i.e. people may channel an “unwanted spirit” and thus the validity of the channeled entity must be questioned and tested.

    The so-called “private prayer language” is essentially the same thing – channeling through the tool of glossolalia. The difference here is that no interpretation is required as the message is going to the deity, not coming from the deity. One may argue though that there is no channeling with ‘private prayer language’; it’s simply ‘praying from the heart’ (i.e. subconsciously) via the medium of glossolalia.

    Judging from the myriad of articles appearing on the internet, this constant and very real preoccupation (arguably more obsession in some cases) of discerning “real tongues” from “false tongues” and/or “demonic tongues” is exactly the reaction one would expect when someone is channeling – i.e. the fear of channeling an unwanted entity.

    There may be another way of viewing “false tongues”, however. It may be argued that “false tongues” aren’t really ‘false’ in the literal sense; the speaker is indeed producing glossolalia just as anyone else would, the difference being that there is no channeling occurring – it’s just the glossic utterances. The closest analogy I can think of would be something akin to picking up a tool and playing around with it, but not really using it for the purpose intended. The person is producing glossolalia, but not using it (in the Christian sense anyway) for the purpose of connecting to God/Holy Spirit to either effect a message or offer a prayer.

    In addition to the above, I have noticed in a few examples where it is very obvious that people are putting a definite conscious effort into the process. The result is that their speech comes off as very atypical of a normal glossic utterance. I realize that this is contradictory to what I have previously stated – i.e. the actual ‘glossa’ is irrelevant; it doesn’t matter what sounds are produced, but in some cases it’s not hard to tell people are clearly making way too much of a conscious effort to produce it. In these cases, what they are producing is not true glossolalia; glossolalia simply does not involve that much of a conscious effort to produce.

    Though clearly a Christian version of spirit channeling is being practiced here, it is not viewed as such by those who practice it. Practitioners are simply not taught what it is they are actually doing and in fact are taught that things like channeling are inherently evil and demonic in nature.

    Even with all of the above discussion on channeling taken into consideration, as previously stated, it still fails to explain the overwhelming discrepancies in interpretations which questions the validity of the entire phenomenon and places the majority of it, I’m afraid, in the realm of “wishful thinking” at best.

    As one internet commenter opined: “You spin a heavy metal record backward and some Christians will claim it’s Satan speaking, but someone can start speaking gibberish in a church and they’re ‘speaking God’s tongue’.” This seemingly double standard really gives cause to make one wonder.

    People practicing tongues truly believe they have a gift; and if in practicing what is perceived as this gift, it brings them closer to God and strengthens their spiritual path, when all is said and done in the end, one may simply argue, what’s the harm?

    And just a quick note for those who may be wondering – no, I am not an atheist by any means, nor am I a so-called ‘cesationist’. As a Linguist, the concept of glossolalia, specifically the Christian concept of “speaking in tongues” has always interested me.

    As a final aside, for those who may have never seen a ‘tongue’ transcribed, below is an example taken right off of a YouTube video of a legitimate pastor speaking a ‘tongue’ – here’s a transcription of what the person is saying:

    Káyntay háychee, háychee kéeho hóro. /kénte héči, héči kího hóro/
    Máhcha keetáy lah mócho, /máča kité la móčo/
    rána mahcháy nay keetáh lau. /rána mačé ne kitá lau/
    Réhnah shay kée nah máhto. /rɛ’na še kí na máto/

    Essentially you read the above left-hand side as if it were English – the only convention I have used is to put an accent over the syllable in the ‘word’ that receives the main stress. The ‘ay’ here is the ‘ay’ in “day”, and of course, don’t forget to trill your R’s. The ‘word’ divisions and punctuation written is an assumption only and is based solely on the speaker’s intonation and phrasing. The right-hand side is a basic IPA phonetic transcription.

  • Kavik

    PART 8 –

    Thus far, the concept of glossolalia has been examined, i.e. the actual speech being produced. But what about this concept of the glossa not really being relevant to the message? As stated earlier, there really appears to be two separate but related parts to the process. If what Christian practitioners say about ‘speaking in tongues’ is taken into account, we may postulate a wholly different view of the entire concept of Christian glossolalia.

    Let me now turn to the process, or methodology of how the actual “message” is received.

    Here’s what a few practitioners have written about it:

    “Speaking in tongues is understood to be not irrational but supra-rational utterance. It is not the forsaking of the rational for the nonsensical, hence gibberish, but the fulfillment and transcendence of the rational in the spiritual. Charismatics are not disturbed by linguists who claim that glossolalia has no observable language structure, for if such were the case, speaking in tongues would not be spiritual but rational speech. Further, speaking in tongues is not viewed as ecstatic utterance, in the sense of uncontrolled, highly emotional, perhaps frenzied activity. While containing a strong emotional (even a rational) element, glossolalia runs deeper than the emotions. Both reason (or mind) and emotions are aspects of the human psyche (psyche), whether on the conscious or subconscious level. Speaking in tongues is thus understood to be trans-psychical; it belongs to the realm of the spirit (pneuma).”

    Another (from a pastor) states it this way:

    “Man is a spirit; he has a soul and lives in a body. If this entire process is approached from a soulish standpoint, one completely misunderstands these gifts. The soul of man (mind, will and intellect) is unable to operate in these gifts. Because these gifts are given by the Holy Spirit, they must function via a man’s spirit. The gift of tongues and interpretations functions in all three realms of the triune of man (spirit, mind, and body). The spirit provides faith, the soul provides willingness and yielding, and the body provides the means through which these gifts operate (tongue and mouth). One must understand the spirit to understand the function of these gifts. If one approaches the gifts from a purely mental paradigm, one will never understand the gifts. It’s like watching a baseball game applying and trying to apply football rules. Nothing makes sense. You cannot explain spiritual truths from only a soulish and physical perspective. Miracles are in another dimension and cannot be experienced if one stays in the physical and soulish realm. Faith is a product of the heart and it is only by faith that these spiritual gifts are received and function.”

    In examining statements such as the above, one can almost summarize them all fairly neatly into a simple concept: we have people speaking in a ‘tongue’ – these people receive or send a message to the divine – if a message is received from the divine, another person who is also attuned will offer an interpretation of said message. If the message is one that is sent (i.e. via so-called ‘private prayer language’), there is no need for an interpretation. This is all done on a more transcendental “spiritual” plane; one yields oneself to the process, one allows the Holy Spirit to speak/pray through them.

    One may certainly argue semantics here, but there’s a word to describe the above scenario; channeling. Specifically, direct spirit-channeling. It is something which is an integral part and goes hand in hand with the practice of glossolalia in virtually all other non-Christian traditions.

    Speaking in tongues and, more to the point, interpretation of tongues can be viewed as nothing more than a Christian form of spirit channeling. Practitioners are simply channeling the Holy Spirit via the tool of glossolalia. Like other traditions that practice channeling, the method used to initiate channeling is not necessarily related to the actual message. Practitioners will argue that channeling and what happens when one is speaking in tongues are two different things entirely however, it really boils down to semantics – both describe essentially the exact same thing.

    The main argument is that the Holy Spirit is praying though the practitioner. The Holy Spirit, however, being one of three aspects of God, does not need to pray. As one person put it to me, “Channeling is the belief that a person’s body has being taken over by a spirit for the purpose of imparting wisdom. This does not happen with the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit.”

    Really? What do you think is happening during speaking and interpretation of tongues!? Call it what you will, it’s channeling.

  • Kavik

    PART 4 –

    The other huge issue with glossolalia which seems to strongly diminish its validity as something divine in nature is the supposed interpretation of a given string or strings. The results of the many studies done were very non-inspiring: Yes, there are people who can supposedly interpret a glossic string; however, if one were to record said string and play it to ten different people who are said to have the ability to interpret; you essentially get ten totally different answers. One might naturally expect an interpretation to be pertinent to those present in the congregation who are hearing the interpretation, and in fact, interpretations often do deal with current events or situations within the church/congregation. Typically however, all interpretations are very general, non-specific, and often deal with known issues/situations in a particular congregation/church, or are just very generic praise type phrases/messages. No two ‘interpretations’ of a given string of glossolalia are ever the same. They may on occasion be very similar, but given the generality of the subject matter of interpretations, that would inevitably be expected.

    To further clarify the above…..There is of course a very distinct difference between translation and interpretation – interpretation allows for a much wider range of variation in meanings and details, whilst translation, by its very definition, concentrates on the specifics and subtleties of what is actually being said. It is understood that Christian ‘tongues’ are said to be interpreted, not translated.

    The above concept is very straightforward and non-problematic, but it does beg the question of “if ‘tongues’ are supposedly language, why must they be ‘interpreted’ and not translated?”

    As a bit of an aside, there are a few places in the Bible where Jesus, speaking his native Aramaic, is directly quoted – Mark 5:41 for example. In many later versions of the English Bible, they will give the phrase in Aramaic and then the English by the phrase “which is interpreted as….”. I find this very misleading in that with every one of these cases, “interpreted” is to be understood as “translated”; the writer of the original text was simply writing the quote as it was spoken in Aramaic, and then offering the reader the Greek translation.

    Many people are misled to believe that because the phrase used is “interpreted” rather than “translated”, that these phrases were somehow Jesus’ ‘heavenly/tongue language’; they are all simply direct Aramaic quotes, nothing more. In our example, “talitha kumi” – talitha is a feminine singular noun meaning “girl”, “kumi” is the second person singular imperative “arise!”. No mystery or heavenly language here, just plain old Aramaic.

    In addition, if in a group setting, one person starts an interpretation, others who may also have an interpretation and want to offer it are to stop and let the initial person finish. As I have been told, one and only one interpretation is ever offered/allowed per glossic utterance. I have also been told by some practitioners that if a message is felt to be ‘off’ or ‘questionable’, the pastor may provide a public correction of the interpretation; it’s not reinterpreted, simply evaluated, discerned, and, if need be, corrected. This however, I’m told, is a fairly rare occurrence. The end result in all cases is that nothing is ever translated; it’s interpreted.

    As will be illustrated below, it’s the generalizations, non-specificity, and inconsistency within these interpretations that are problematic and beg further scrutiny.

    There have been numerous studies done (Samarin (1968), Pattison (1968), Wehr (1996), just to reference a few) which have revealed some damning results and major discrepancies with respect to the interpretation of glossolalia.

    In these studies, a string of glossolalia is recorded and played back to several people who are able to interpret tongues. It is a blind test such that interpreters are purposely not grouped all together but kept separate from one another – the idea here is so that each may offer his/her own interpretation without the possible influence from another interpreter. Interpretations given in these instances were quite inconsistent. In one study, they ranged from praying for the health of someone’s children, to praising God for a recent successful church fund-raising event. No two have ever been remotely similar to one another other than that fact that they were either praise related or message related (but never the same underlying “core” message).

    One study, conducted by a Frenchman in the late 1990’s, went so far as to present two samples to interpreters; one being a recorded sample of glossolalia obtained at a church service, the other being simply the Pater Noster recited twice through in a very broad Scots. Needless to say, interpretations were offered for both samples (much to the dismay of the Scotsman who recorded the “Oor Faither”).

    One (former) speaker put it this way which also speaks to the repetition of a particular string or strings of glossic utterance: “I realized that my tongues-vocabulary wasn’t very big. I mean, I would essentially say the same 20 words over and over again, just in different arrangements and sequences. I brought this to the attention of my pastor and he told me that even though I was saying “shundara” over and over again, that because it was a private prayer language, each time I said it, it meant something different. And so even though it sounded to me like I was saying the same phrase repeatedly, in reality I was not, and in fact was saying all sorts of things in the spiritual realm.”

    The results illustrate the point that if the same exact glossic string is heard by several different people, you’ll inevitably get several very different, non-related interpretations. Adding support to these findings is that interpretations are often strikingly longer or shorter than the actual glossic utterance itself. If interpretations of the same glossic string are contradictory and inconsistent to one another, glossolalia/tongues fail as language by any definition.

    PART 5 –

    The all too common come-back to the issue of ‘multiple interpretations’ is that God/the Holy Spirit simply gives different interpretations to different people. As one writer quips (and I couldn’t have said it better myself), “Pentecostal Darwinism however does not exist – there’s no mutation or transformation of one message into several for the sake of justifying an obvious discrepancy. If this were the case, it would completely eradicate the need for glossolalia in the first place. If however the interpretation is a spiritual thing that is not really based on the sounds of the actual glossolalia, what then is the purpose of the sounds at all?”

    Unless of course, discrepancies in interpretations aside, the purpose of the sounds in Christian glossolalia is viewed in the same way most other cultures/religions practicing glossolalia view it: namely, as a TOOL. The glossic utterance itself is in some respects rather irrelevant; it is simply the tool used by the practitioner by which to establish the connection to the divine (a way of preparing oneself to receive or relay a message). It is not the MEANS by which the message/praise itself is relayed. The means, it seems, is accomplished via an altogether different mechanism totally independent of the glossic utterance.

    This later view changes the entire concept of glossolalia in the Christian context in that it must be viewed as a tool, not a means. This puts Christian glossolalia in line with all other cultures/faith traditions that practice it.

    As an aside, this may also nicely explain the need to ‘interpret’ rather than ‘translate’. Simply put, there is nothing TO translate – the glossolalia itself, as can be seen from the above, is neither the message nor means by which said message is relayed.

    One of the main differentiating features of how Christian glossolalia is practiced is that, more often than not, the speaker of the glossolalia does not also serve as the interpreter. One reason given by practitioners is that they are understood to be two separate ‘gifts’ of the Holy Spirit; one may be able to speak glossolalia, but not be able to interpret, conversely one may be able to interpret but not speak. Occasionally, a person may be gifted with both abilities. This notably differs from how other cultures practice it where the speaker frequently also serves as the interpreter/relayer of the message received.

    Further detracting from its validity as language, it appears that Christian glossolalia cannot be interpreted from the written text. That is, if a string is transcribed and written out, the interpreter is not able to offer an interpretation from the written text, nor it seems, are they able to offer an interpretation even if the text is read aloud by a third party, though I have never heard of an example where this has been tested.

    In asking a few Pentecostals who practice glossolalia about this, their answers seem to suggest that there exists a symbiosis of sorts between the speaker and the interpreter such that the interpreter is completely dependent upon the original speaker in order to affect an interpretation. This is not how any language works – in a sense, you either understand the language or you do not; it should make no difference who is speaking it, nor should it make a difference if it’s being read aloud from a written source by the interpreter or another person.

    This lends further support in viewing glossolalia as a tool rather than a means. To be perfectly fair, with respect to written text or text being read by a third party, that reading will not always carry the same emotion or timbre of the voice as the original speaker, both of which are important features of spoken language. However, neither of these should have a major effect on the ‘core’ message supposedly being relayed. This concept will come into play as I discuss “interpretation” further below as it seems to suggest that the whole phenomenon of interpretation is really something else entirely; one which is based on some mechanism other than speaking.

    Glossolalia, as previously stated, is by no means exclusive to Christianity – many cultures employ glossolalia as part of their cultural traditions; from Siberia, to Borneo, to Africa, to Native America. It is all produced the exact same way, regardless of cultural or religious differences. In all of these other traditions, glossolalia is regarded for what it really is; simply a tool (like chanting, or meditation) to connect to the divine or spirit world.

    Not to get too far off point, but a quick example of a very modern non-Christian glossolalia practiced is so-called “Light Language”. It is produced the same way and follows the same phonetic rules as any other glossolalia however it differs from Christian glossolalia in that the ratio of vowels to consonants seems to be greater for most speakers. It can actually come off as sounding a bit Polynesian because of this. Sound or more specifically, sound frequencies play a large part in “light language”. Speech is often interrupted by sounding out a particular tone or tones, the vibrational frequencies of which are believed to affect healing within the practitioner and/or listeners. The unique thing about “light language” glossolalia is not only can it be spoken and sung (as in Christian glossolalia), but it can also be written and even signed. What is also curious is that light language is typically not interpreted or translated – the meaning/message is supposed to resonate within the listener on a deeply subconscious level.

    The point here is that even though we’re dealing with a completely different set of beliefs, practices, and traditions, practitioners of “Light Language” are doing the exact same thing that is being done in Christian glossolalia.

    In this respect, it is very important to keep in mind that non-Christian practitioners of glossolalia are speaking and producing their glossolalia in the EXACT same way Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are – it can’t be stressed enough that there is absolutely ZERO difference between what they are doing and what Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are doing. For any Christian practitioner to think that simply because they are Christian and these other practitioners are not, that what these others are doing is somehow “Satanic”, “demonic”, or “false” in nature (even though you’re both doing the exact same thing in the exact same way), is utter nonsense and religiocentric in the absolute extreme.

    Even if one accepts that Christian glossolalia behaves as a tool rather than a means and should be regarded as such, and that interpretation is independent of the glossic utterance; the glossic utterance being virtually irrelevant with respect to sounds, length, etc., it still fails to explain the overwhelming discrepancies in interpretations which is very problematic for postulating its supposed divine origin. It also negates the possibility of the actual glossa as being divine in nature; it’s something purely of human origin produced by practitioners in various ways by various methods. It does not need to be divine as it’s simply a tool by which the practitioner connects to the deity to affect or relay a message; the messages themselves being quite varied in nature.

  • Kavik

    PART 2 –

    A recent argument for the divine nature of glossolalia presented to me was that even small children can speak in tongues and even they know that it is something that is from the Holy Spirit.

    By the way as a quick aside, it’s ‘spirit’, not ‘ghost’; the word in original Greek texts is ‘pneuma’; never ‘phantasma’ or ‘optassia’.

    My answer is simple. Of course they would be able to speak in tongues. Small children brought up in this religious tradition can, and do, learn to produce glossolalia from an early age. In many respects, it is actually easier for them as they are still in the process of playing with language and sounds. Because of this, the progression to full glossolalia is not a difficult one. In addition, they’ve been listening to it and have grown up in the tradition since birth – they’re simply imitating (and ultimately learning) what they’re seeing and hearing all around them. Kids at that age after all are typically very impressionable and quick to copy parents and other adults. More importantly, they are learning that it’s okay to continue to play with sounds and produce strings of speech by playing with those sounds (albeit subconsciously).

    The religious significance of what they are doing is also taught from day one, so the phenomenon is immediately associated within a religious context. Kids are taught from a young age that there is something ‘special” about what they are doing. Given the above, there’s absolutely no mystery here as to how or why small children can exhibit glossolalia; not only are they just copying adults, it’s actually easier and more natural for them to produce it than it is for adults.

    So what about adults? Adults new to the phenomenon will all learn it virtually the same way; by observation, repetition, imitation, positive reinforcement, and encouragement. Once a person learns the methodology behind it, glossolalia can be done at will in any setting; church, sitting in a chair at home, wherever. Initial presentation does not need to first occur in a church setting. There’s no mystery here either; it is learned by exposure to the environment or cultural/religious setting in which it occurs, and either consciously or subconsciously imitating what is occurring. Very often the individual they are imitating is usually the most prominent ‘speaker’ (the “guide” as some would call it) in the congregation.

    In fact, studies have been done which show that the glossolalists from one congregation will all sound very similar to each other, yet may sound different from another congregation (all of whom sound similar to one another) – people are simply learning from and off of one another and following the guidance of the most predominant speaker in that congregation (who may or may not be the pastor), so it’s not surprising glossolalia in one congregation tends to all sound relatively the same.

    Moreover, there even exist many “how to/instructional” type videos on social media such as YouTube by which an aspirant can “learn to speak in tongues”. The existence of such videos is clearly indicative of glossolalia being a learned behavior. The methods taught are virtually all identical and are somewhat methodical – in a nutshell, they teach one how to enter a somewhat meditative state and simply start babbling or to take a known word (hallelujah, for example) and start playing with the sounds in the word. This allows the mind to relax into a mild meditative state and simply start “playing” with sounds.

    There is also, in some cases, the extreme desire and on the aspirant speaker’s part to exhibit the phenomenon; i.e. an extreme desire, need and/or want to be able to speak in tongues. I believe that this desire helps the spirant to overcome some of the obstacles (sounding or looking “strange”, or “ridiculous”, for example) many new learners encounter. Conversely however, from the many ‘testimonies’ I’ve read, it seems the opposite tends to be more the norm.

    One speaker described the experience in this way: “First of all I realized that it is definitely a language being spoken by my mouth. I cannot with my mind imitate it, or even come close to trying to fake a language that sounds so real. I speak faster than I can speak English. I also often do things that I cannot do without God’s help, such as roll my tongue the way some German words are spoken. The language never comes from my mind, it comes out of my heart as I yield my tongue to the Holy Spirit. But I always have control, I can begin speaking it anytime, I can stop anytime, I control the volume.”

    As can be seen from this descriptive example, when exhibiting glossolalia, a speaker is able to control all mechanisms of normal speech, what is being produced however is taken by the speaker to be a real language since it is not anything consciously produced (“the language never comes from my mind”). It is simply subconscious free vocalization – playing with sounds on a subconscious level. Being able to speak it faster than English is due to the oversimplification of syllable structure in glossolalia; it is quicker to vocalize using a CVCVCV pattern. Notice too with the example above, the speaker makes reference to the trilled ‘r’, something s/he does not do in normal American English speech.

    As to the positive reinforcement and encouragement, in a question put to a speaker of tongues (psychohistorian.org © 2003-2016 by Auke Slotegraaf) the questioner asks: “In retrospect, was there any pressure applied on you to speak in tongues?” to which the person asked replied: “Yes, if all around you people are speaking in tongues and you keep hearing teachings and testimonies of people that speak in tongues and you are given literature about it and your teachers speak in tongues and the Bible says you should speak in tongues and people are praying for you to be able to speak in tongues then I guess you are a little pressured to speak in tongues and join the rest.”

    Another describes it thus: “They then stated how I was to “yield” to the Spirit of God and allow God to speak His language, tongues, through me as I “yield” my tongue to Him. They stated for me not to speak English or Spanish but to just “let it flow”. I nodded in agreement and as they laid their hands on my forehead I closed my eyes and waited. Seconds that seemed like hours passed by as no manifestation took place. As they continued to pray they would say in between their prayers over me, “just start to move your tongue, don’t speak English, don’t speak Spanish, just flow with the Spirit” I started to think, “how do I flow? What the heck does yield mean.” I went from very excited to very nervous. “Should I say something…what should I do…oh Lord help me say something….” I thought.”

    PART 3 –

    Yet another describes his experience this way: “My pastor devoted hours working with us and teaching those who hadn’t received the gift yet some techniques to start speaking in tongues. He told us that first we had to clear our minds of any thoughts. This was because our minds wouldn’t understand what we are doing and would want to war against and question what our mouth was doing, and so it was important not to overthink it, or think it at all. Then he told us some methods that would help get us going. He used the analogy that it was like starting a car on a cold day. Asking to speak in tongues was like turning the key, and all you needed was a little kick to help the engine turn over and get it to start roaring. These were some of his suggestions:

    1 If you know a foreign language, start speaking that and ask God to transform it into a different one on the go.

    2. Repeat the words “shoulda-bought-a-honda-couldove-bought-a-honda. or “shabbada-shabbada shaka-whaoh” over and over again. This will train your mouth and your tongue to lose control and get used to making strange sounds.

    3. Pick a phrase from the scriptures and say it over and over again, as fast as you can, until the words become unintelligible in your mouth. When you can’t say it any faster take a leap of faith and say the first things that come to your mind-oftentimes this will be your new tongues.

    4. Start making intercession with groaning that can’t be uttered. Start to groan and moan while curled up in a ball on the ground, from deep within your chest, and visualize your sounds transforming into words.

    5. Read Bible verses but take out the vowels from what you’re reading, and try to pronounce them all the while asking God to give you the gift- this oftentimes acts like a kick start.

    6. Hold your hands over your ears so that you can’t hear yourself speaking, and start saying words and making sounds as the spirit leads, and then have a friend come over and listen. The reason you are plugging your ears is because as you are getting disappointed with the English words that are coming out of your mouth and then losing faith, which will kill it. If you do start speaking in tongues, your friends will be able to hear it and confirm it for you.”

    In almost every example I have read of people’s experience in “beginning to speak in tongues” (read as “learning how to produce glossolalia”), there is a very distinct feeling of the aspirant being, one might say, ‘gently forced’ (peer pressure at its extreme) into speaking….anything, so long as it isn’t English or, apparently, a recognizable language

    In many ‘testimonies’ I have read and seen, it seems that for many the entire experience was rather traumatic; many people felt, for lack of a better way of putting it, “forced” to speak or utter something and many describe being made to feel somehow inferior if they did not start uttering something…anything. It could be argued, that this is amounts to almost a reinforcement or proof of some kind to the ‘facilitators’ that what they were attempting to get the aspirant to do was indeed working – that their ability to cause others to produce glossolalia (in the context of a religious experience) is legitimate and valid. It should be noted that this pressure put upon the aspirant to produce glossolalia on the spot, as it were, is not the experience of everyone, but from testimonies I have read or heard, it seems to occur much more frequently than one would be led to believe. Further, it should be noted that the experience for the facilitators appears to always be a very positive one regardless of the outcome for the aspirant.

    With regard to the above, as one writer nicely summed it up: “The charismatic movement appeals to the emotions. People like to be emotionally charged. The problem however is it is so experience centered that the truth of the Scripture is often overlooked. Experience cannot dictate doctrine! People are looking for fulfillment and satisfaction. Many are promised they can find this satisfaction by speaking in tongues.”

    Why the reluctance and, in some cases, people agonizing over not having the ability to produce glossic utterances? I believe that one of the main hindrances most people face is that they are simply afraid to play and experiment with sounds perhaps out of fear of “sounding/looking ridiculous” or “not getting/doing it right”. One must remember that from a very early age we are taught to “use your words”, as some parents say, i.e. relate what you wish to say in intelligible speech, stop babbling. In short, we are taught as small children that playing with sounds is not something that should be done or encouraged, rather we must learn how to form those sounds into intelligible speech. As adults, it’s hard to revert back to that stage in our language development when playing with sounds was actually something fun.

    Whether children or adults, examples such as the above clearly demonstrate that tongues is learned behavior. Being placed into an environment where glossolalia is literally all around you and is made to be something that you are clearly expected to perform, the pressure put on you, the frenetic fervor of the moment, it is no surprise that so many pick up the methodology and ability to do so rather quickly. One could even argue examples such as those described above are representative of extreme peer pressure or a type of “soft conditioning” rather than positive reinforcement and encouragement.

    A very strong argument for tongues as being divine in nature frequently referred to by proponents is a study done by the University of Pennsylvania on the phenomenon of glossolalia. In a nutshell, the study determined via SPECT imaging that when a person exhibits glossolalia, the language producing areas of the brain are not really engaged; i.e. ‘tongues’ do not originate in the speech center of the brain. These results have been used to support its supposed divine origins or that a person is not in control of what s/he is saying. After reading the study, I would argue the results are exactly as what one would expect; it stands to reason the brain’s language producing center is not really being engaged simply because glossolalia is not language. It’s just free vocalization –playing with sounds which do not require the language producing centers in the brain to be overly engaged. The results are somewhat inconclusive in that they can be skewed to equally support either argument.

    What is also interesting is that most, if not all, practitioners comment that they could never reproduce (either speaking or writing) the glossic utterances they speak, nor could they remember or repeat what they said after having just spoke it. The reason most give is that, being filled with the Spirit, it is the Spirit doing the speaking through them and, as such, they simply cannot reproduce or repeat what they just said.

    The reason for this however is considerably less mysterious. To put it rather frankly, when an individual is rambling off a string of syllables at random, completely ad lib with no thought as to what is actually being produced, it is virtually impossible to reproduce the exact same string vocally, let alone trying to recall enough to be able to write it out. It is very much like a jazz singer ad libbing a verse or two by “scatting”; if they sing the song ten times, no two verses sung via scatting will ever be quite the same. Like glossolalia, there’s simply not that much thought process that goes into what the syllables will actually sound like making exact repetition difficult at best.

    It must be clearly noted however that I am NOT comparing the concept of “scatting” to glossolalia – again, to be quite frank, scatting requires quite a bit more thought process than glosolaia; there’s actually much more going on with respect to actual thought processes – the musical phrasing, pitch, tone, fluidity of speech, etc., are just a few of the things required of the singer to be thinking about. Glossolalia on the other hand, does not need to take any of this into account – it is complete free vocalization. That said, there are people who will also “sing in the spirit”, i.e. sing in glossolalia. From the examples I have seen and heard of this particular version of glossolalia, it appears that the actual melody is created to fit the words; rarely (indeed, if ever) I think, is the melody written out first then sung in tongues. It’s the same process though – free vocalization only instead of speaking, the practitioner is just randomly producing a tune- sort of like putting random syllables to ad lib humming.

    Some practitioners will argue that there are “thousands of languages spoken in the world today, how can anyone know that ‘tongues’ are not one of them?” Yes, there are indeed thousands of languages spoken in the world today – unfortunately not one of them is remotely close to what people are producing in their glossolalia/tongues. Real language is unmistakable, as is glossolalia.

  • Kavik

    OK – since some have asked, I’m posting the original long post – I apologize in advance for the inordinate length. Because of the length, I have to post it in several parts (they’re labeled).

    Since my study is somewhat ongoing I would welcome comments in hopes of learning more about this phenomenon.

    PART 1 (of 9)

    Let me preface this post by making it clear that it is not written with any deliberate intention of offending anyone who practices glossolalia (a/k/a ‘speaking in tongues’). I am of the belief that all people are free to choose their own spiritual path and though I may not agree with the tenants and practices of your particular path, it does not mean I should try and dissuade you from it and that is not what I am attempting here. That said, I do take a hard look at the phenomenon of glossolalia below and discuss it in a rather frank manner and acknowledge that the results may or may not paint the Pentecostal/Charismatic concept of “tongues” in nearly the same light as its practitioners view it. I have tried to keep the sections somewhat orderly, but the ideas presented may skip around a bit in places – these are more or less notes; not a formal paper. Where I have quoted individuals, I have not given names or sources simply for the sake of their anonymity – all individuals quoted come from various online sources.

    As a Linguist, I have studied the phenomenon of glossolalia from both a linguistic and cultural point of view. My primary concentration was on the linguistic aspect of this phenomenon.

    During the course of my study, it soon became clear that there are really two separate phenomena taking place here: the actual glossa (i.e. the speech, or ‘tongue’ as some would call it) and the interpretation of said glossa (i.e. the “message”).

    Let me start by providing a brief summary of the results of the study, and then examine each in greater detail.

    Results were rather straightforward from which only one reasonable conclusion may be drawn: glossolalia in and of itself is simply an advanced form of learned, subconscious word-play or “free-vocalization”; anyone can learn to produce it relatively easily. Glossolalia only has specific significance in a cultural or religious context where it is part of that cultural or religious belief system’s practice. In these instances, with the possible exception of Christian glossolalia, it is viewed as a tool rather than a means (more on this further below).

    Interpretation which, in most cases, goes hand in hand with the glossolalia, can be viewed as nothing more than a Christian form of what is known as ‘spirit channeling’. Practitioners are simply channeling the Holy Spirit via the tool of glossolalia. As in other traditions that practice channeling, the method/tool used to initiate the process is not necessarily related to the actual ‘message’. Practitioners will argue that channeling and what happens when one is speaking in tongues are two very different things; however, it really boils down to semantics – both describe essentially the same thing.

    Let me first discuss glossolalia in greater detail –

    In Charismatic/Pentecostal Christianity glossolalia (i.e. “tongues”) can only be regarded as divinely inspired speech and/or its interpretation. Moreover, the fact of how glossolalia is actually produced and what it linguistically comprises doesn’t seem to even come into question. It almost really can’t; “tongues” and its divine origin is an integral core tenant Pentecostal belief. Without “tongues”, Pentecostalism in particular falls rather flat. If the actual mechanics of glossolalia did come into question, there’s really only one rational conclusion: tongues/glossolalia totally excludes any possibility of being divine in nature.

    One can certainly perhaps believe him/her self to be divinely inspired to practice glossolalia, but glossolalia in and of itself is neither divine nor miraculous; it’s actually quite mundane and often times its structure in a given speaker or group of speakers from the same congregation is even quite predictable.

    It should be noted that most other Christian and non-Christian traditions consider Biblical ‘tongues’ as real language(s). It is generally understood that the word used in the original Greek texts, ‘glossa’, refers to real language, not ecstatic utterance. For the Pentecostal or Charismatic however ‘glossa’, it seems, may refer to both.

    Rather than engage in a lengthy discussion and linguistic analysis of glossolalia, let me summarize a few facts to illustrate the point:

    Glossolalia will ONLY contain those phonemes (sounds) found in a speaker’s native language or any other language s/he may be familiar with or have been exposed to (either wittingly or not).

    Glossolalia is governed by the SAME phonological rules that apply to the speaker’s native language(s)

    In other words, if a person knows or has only ever been exposed to say English, their glossolalia will not contain any sounds, or combination of sounds, not found in English. It’s as simple as that. The sounds made by the German ü or ö, or the Welsh ‘ll’, or the Zulu ‘q’ will never occur in their ‘tongue’.

    Further, since the phonological rules of a speaker’s glossolalia will always conform to the same phonological rules of (in this example) English, any disallowed syllable structures (e.g. consonant clusters, diphthongs, etc.) in the speaker’s native language (again in this example, English) will also be disallowed in that speaker’s glossolalia.

    Syllable structure is also rather unique to some degree. Glossolalia typically exhibits a very open syllable structure; that is, the syllables of a given “word” are typically Consonant (C) Vowel (V), and strings typically consist of a repetition of this structure; so something like CVCVCVCV. With the final segment of the string, there seems to be a choice of using either an open syllable or a closed one (a closed syllable has the structure CVC). This simplified syllable structure lends itself to the impression by many people that ‘tongues’ simply “flow” from the speaker’s mouth.

    Note that where I have used ‘C’ (consonant) here, it should be understood that it could represent a single consonant, or any allowed consonant cluster.

    Therefore, the end result being that the glossolalia of a German speaker will never quite sound like an English or Spanish speaker. Conversely, neither of their glossolalia will ever sound like a German’s.

    What has also been noted and is rather interesting is that American speakers of glossolalia tend to try and make their speech sound more “foreign” or less “American English” sounding, for lack of a better way of putting it. The two most common methods are by trilling the ‘r’ sound (as in many European languages, but unlike American English), and the noticeable absence of the ‘ash’ sound (the ‘a’ in the word “ash”) as this is considered a very English sound (though it certainly does occur in other languages). The trilled ‘r’ has entered the repertoire of sounds (phonemic inventory) of American English – the trilled ‘r’ and typical American ‘rhotic r’ have become variations of one another.

    Glossolalia most closely resembles human babbling in structure. The typical syllable structure of “babble” is CVCV (i.e. open syllables no matter what your native language may favor). Glossolalia typically contains syllables which are repeated several times, often with a bit of play on the initial consonant in the syllable; alternating various stop consonants (in English, p/b/, t/d/, k/g) for example, and occasionally a bit of play on the ending of the ‘word’s where the first part of all words in a given string is simply repetition.

    • mario

      Well after listening to the findings NO conclusive results were obtained. If I said that I spoke in tongues and I did NOT know if I was speaking a heavenly language or was I actually cursing GOD in this language. Speaking in tongues “TEST” to be proven could the “TEST” be more meaningful and accurate if all the false religions Buddhists, Hindu, Spiritualists ect and have them take the tests ( against the true believer ) and see if false religions are speaking the same holy spirit tongues language or are their tongues different (NOT FROM SATAN CURSING GOD)? Maybe their frontal lobe will be working or not.. The conclusion of the experiments do not show if it is from the Holy Spirit or Satan cursing God?

      People that go by feelings and emotions and experiences only find themselves in these situations. They are just making the preachers and book writers rich.

    • mario

      Who is Andrew B. Newberg ? Is he a born again Christian ? Who paid him to do the tests ? How many books has he written ? Do his books bring people to Christ ? Or is he just making a mint out of theses books written ?

    • mario

      Hi just a question HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT SPEAKING IN TONGUES? Have you read what the bible says about tongues yourself?

      Would these questions make you reconsider what you are made to believe ?

      1) Who demanded signs?
      2) What does the bible say about tongues, WHEN DID IT START, WHY WAS THERE TONGUES?
      3) HOW many times did tongues appear in the bible like Pentecost, WHY and how many years apart?
      4) What was the real reason for tongues?
      5) Where Tongues a known languages ?
      6) Who could lay hands and transfer the gift ONLY?
      7) Can all speak in tongues, WHY?
      8) Why do all pagan religions also speak the same tongues as so called Christian tongues?
      9) Are tongue speakers more spiritual than none speakers?
      10) Does speaking in tongues prove that you are MORE SPIRITUAL?
      11) Why was sign gifts already spoken in the past tense in 2 Corinthians?
      12) Why does Rev 13: 13-14 and 1 Thes 2:8-12 say that that the ANTICHRIST will deceive the world with signs and wonders, are you being deceived?
      13) WHY do Christians seek signs when Math 12:39 says that … an evil and adulterous generation seek after a SIGN?
      14) HAS GOD ever commanded or caused Christians to speak in tongues.
      15) Is there any BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN 1 Corinthians 14??
      16) WAS Pentecost a religious movement, or a religious experience?
      17) IS THERE ANYWHERE in the bible that people are told to pray, preach, sing or praise GOD in TONGUES?
      18) JOHN 20:22 when JESUS breathed the HOLY SPIRIT onto the Disciples, did they SPAEK IN TONGUES??
      19) DOES Acts 4:31, Ephes5:18-31 INCLUDE SPEAKING IN TONGUES??
      20) Why are tongues NOT mentioned as SPIRITUAL GIFTS in Romans 6-8??
      21) Tongues was for the unbeliever and never encouraged as it did NOT edify the church. WHY do so many want the least gifts?
      22) ARE THERE MANY seducing spirits in the world? Are we supposed to “try” the spirits? 1 Timothy 4:1 and 1 John4:1 and Rev 2:2???
      23) If you are spiritual should you not Judge all things? 1 Corin2:15
      24) WHY did Paul say that tongues would cease to the Corinthian Church? 1 Corinth 13:8
      25) WHY would Paul say that the Christians should be like adults and put away childish things like tongues?? 1 Corinth 13:11
      26) Bible tongues could NOT be faked, they were real languages? Acts 2:1-11
      27) WHERE in the bible does it say ONE can be taught to speak in TONGUES??
      28) Why if tongues are IMPORTANT, why are they not required by BISHOPS, DECEANS and ELDERS to speak? 1 Tim 3:1-6: and Titus 1:5.
      29) Must ONE GO BY Experience, Feelings OR by FAITH?
      30) ARE woman allowed to speak in tongues?
      31) Is praying in tongues THE SAME as praying in the SPIRIT?
      32) Romans 8:26 Spirit helps us pray with groans that can not be uttered?? Can it be a pray language, where you can NOT UTTER it???
      33) Corinth 14:13-17 ..STATES that PRAYING IN TONGUES must also be INTERPRETED? WHY? If, it is a heavenly language where you do not want the SATAN to understand, WHY INTERPRET IT????
      34) HOW can praying in tongues be for SELF EDIFICATION when scripture says says that spiritual gifts is for the EDIFICATION OF the CHURCH and not SELF??1 Corinthians 12:7??
      35) IF tongues is NOT FOR everyone how can it be FOR SELF-EDIFICATION?? 1 Corith 12:11: 28-30
      36) HOW can praying in tongues be PRIVATE pray language if the GIFT of tongues is a sign to unbelievers?? 1 Corinth 14:22
      37) WHAT was the reason for tongues??? 3000 saved?? FOR SELF? Acts2:41
      38) WAS tongues not a curse?? DEUT 28:49; JER 5:15 :
      39) IF Roman Catholics, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormons, Moslems, Buddhists, witch doctors, spiritualists and numerous heathen religions also speak in tongues??? Is it from GOD??
      40) DID the sign gifts cease? Why could Paul at the end of his ministry not be able to heal himself, Trophimus, andTimothy 1 Tim 5:23 and 2 Timothy4:20.
      41) WHY does 1 Corinth 13:13 say “NOW abides FAITH, HOPE and LOVE…BUT the greatest is LOVE??? Where are the other sign gifts gone??1 Corinth 13: 8-13 and 13: 8.
      42) WHEN Jesus comes we will NOT need FAITH and HOPE. WE live by FAITH not by SIGHT are the gift signs sight???? ONLY LOVE will remain.

      IF TONGUES TODAY ARE NOT FROM GOD ? WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOUR SALVATION? THE BIBLE SAYS THAT TONGUES WOULD CEASE AND NOT EVERYONE HAD THAT GIFT, ARE THE ONES WITH THAT GIFT MORE SPIRITUAL THAN OTHERS, DO THEY NEED MORE SELF EDIFICATION THAN OTHERS?

      VERY DANGEROUS GROUND ONE IS PLAYING WITH IF TONGUES IS NOT FROM GOD ?

  • Kavik

    Below is a short excerpt from some notes on a study I had done of glossolalia a few years back (still really ongoing here and there as time allows).

    As a Linguist, I have studied the phenomenon of glossolalia from both a linguistic and cultural point of view. My primary concentration was on the linguistic aspect of this phenomenon.

    During the course of my study, it soon became clear that there are really two separate phenomena taking place here: the actual glossa (i.e. the speech, or ‘tongue’ as some would call it) and the interpretation of said glossa (i.e. the “message”).

    Let me start by providing a brief summary of the results of the study – in keeping this post as short as possible I do not go into any details of the summary.

    Results were rather straightforward from which only one reasonable conclusion may be drawn: glossolalia in and of itself is simply an advanced form of learned, subconscious word-play or “free-vocalization”; anyone can learn to produce it relatively easily. Glossolalia only has specific significance in a cultural or religious context where it is part of that cultural or religious belief system’s practice. In these instances, with the possible exception of Christian glossolalia, it is viewed as a tool rather than a means (more on this further below).

    Interpretation which, in most cases, goes hand in hand with the glossolalia, can be viewed as nothing more than a Christian form of what is known as ‘spirit channeling’. Practitioners are simply channeling the Holy Spirit via the tool of glossolalia. As in other traditions that practice channeling, the method/tool used to initiate the process is not necessarily related to the actual ‘message’. Practitioners will argue that channeling and what happens when one is speaking in tongues are two very different things; however, it really boils down to semantics – both describe essentially the same thing.

    Simply stated, glossolalia/”speaking in tongues” is nothing more than an advanced form of word play done within the subconscious and its production by anyone may boil down to simply a matter of not being afraid to “play with sounds” – something almost anyone over the age of four or so has forgotten how to do. Messages received/sent are done so by direct spirit channeling and are completely independent of the glossic utterance.

    Glossolalia, which is in no way specific to Christianity, is almost always found in use in a religious context and its usage should be regarded as simply a tool by which the practitioner may connect to the divine (or for some, the spirit world), but in and of itself, glossolalia is neither divine nor miraculous.

    To sum it up –

    For some Christians, glossolalia is a way for that person to become closer to God (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that). They are taught from a young age to believe that the tool (i.e. ‘tongues’) is the actual medium by which one speaks to God or God speaks/reveals to man. From the many examples I have seen however, it is absolutely no different than how other faith traditions that practice glossolalia connect to their deities. Tongues/Glossolalia is to these Christian believers a very real and spiritually meaningful phenomenon, but consisting of emotional release via non-linguistic ‘free vocalizations’ at best – the subconscious playing with sounds to create what is perceived and interpreted as actual, meaningful speech.

    • Mary P

      Thank you Kavik, I would like to read more of your work. I myself started attending a Pentecost church at the age of 5. My parents were non-believers, I went with my grandmother who always reminded me that I had the power to believe whatever I wanted to believe. I was saved, and spoke in tongues at the age of 15ish. I personally never bought into the bible, I was a logical child, who read the bible, asked a lot of questions, & never felt that my questions were answered. I always felt like something wasn’t right with Christianity. so I started to study other religions around 12. For me when I prayed I prayed and spoke to the universe no particular God. When I was saved, I was praying for God to save me from the painful, neglectful family life I had. I suddenly, had a calmness over me, & felt that I was having a direct conversation with God. Words flowed from my mouth, what I was trying to say & what came out of my mouth did not agree. I was aware of this, but I kept having my conversation with God. As I talked, another lady grabbed my hands and spoke to me in tongues, I knew what she was saying. I still to this day do not buy into Christianity, but after this experience I do believe that there is more to us as humans than we are capable of ever fully understanding. I do believe our brains are functioning in a very different way when we speak in tongues, rather this is truly Gods will our just our own ability to communicate in a way outside of what we currently understand, this is the question I have. Either way, I think it is a beautiful experience & harmless. My children would be terrified to view such a thing, and I strongly feel that tongues is something only adults should experience, because I believe people should be able to find their own belief paths & not be told or pressured to believe one way or another.

      • mario

        Hi very interesting.

        How were you saved at 15 ? What did you do to get saved ? How did you know that you were saved ? What does the bible say about speaking in “tongues”, do you know, have you read it for yourself ?

        I ask these questions because of what you said happened to you.

        You said “I personally never bought into the bible, ….I always felt like something wasn’t right with Christianity. “.

        What other religions did you study ? Who were all these other gods that you prayed to ? (Universal gods)

        When you said the following when you spoke in (tongues) ….. “Words flowed from my mouth, what I was trying to say & what came out of my mouth did not agree. I was aware of this, but I kept having my conversation with God.”

        Your conversation with god WAS NOT the things that came out of your mouth. Did better things come out of your or worse things ?

        “As I talked, another lady grabbed my hands and spoke to me in tongues, I knew what she was saying.”

        How did you know that the lady was “speaking in tongues” if you understood it?
        When I speak to people of differently languages that I know I understand them directly. They are not speaking in other tongues. I understand them without hearing (unknown tongues) and then understanding it. Did you hear other tongues AND then you understood it OR as she spoke you understood it?

        “I still to this day do not buy into Christianity, but after this experience I do believe that there is more to us as humans than we are capable of ever fully understanding”

        SO you were saved but to this day you do not buy into christianity ? Christianity is not about experiences, feelings and emotions it about faith in Jesus Christ and a personal relationship with Jesus.

        “I do believe our brains are functioning in a very different way when we speak in tongues, rather this is truly Gods will our just our own ability to communicate in a way outside of what we currently understand, this is the question I have.

        Good question you said you do not buy into Christianity and you speak in tongues IF the tongues you speak are not from God WHO are they from? Other people from false religions also speak in “tongues”. Are these tongues from God or Satan or just a learnt behaviour ?

        “Either way, I think it is a beautiful experience & harmless.”

        Well harmless is very questionable ? ? Who is giving you these tongues?

        ” My children would be terrified to view such a thing, and I strongly feel that tongues is something only adults should experience, because I believe people should be able to find their own belief paths & not be told or pressured to believe one way or another.”

        If God is a loving pure and true God why would you feel that your children would be terrified ( what was so terrifying to you that you think that your children should not see such things ?

        God loves us as his own children.

        Sorry about all the questions but you need to understand what the bible says about what you “hear people say or do ” read about it yourself DO NOT believe anything or every thing you see or hear. The bible says there is great deception in the last days.

        • Mary P.

          Frankly, Mario, your comments are rude. I stated that I studied & read the Bible, as well as the Koran, and many other religious doctrine. I came to the conclusion that speaking in tongues is a form of meditation, or turning on of an area of our brain that we do not normally use. As for understanding and knowing the lady was speaking in tongues; she spoke, I heard a “foreign” language and understood what she said. I am not wasting my time with the rest of your questions.

          • mario

            Thank you for you comment. I am sorry if you thought I was rude. I apologise. But no matter what you believe about tongues. As you say “I came to the conclusion that speaking in tongues is a form of meditation, or turning on of an area of our brain that we do not normally use.”

            Tests in Speaking in unknown tongues was. The person that did the tests was he a christian ? How many books has he written ? How much money is he making out a people ? Were the same tests also done with other false religions which also speak in tongues ” Mormons, some devil-possessed spiritists, heathen witch doctors in Africa and Asia. Even before Jesus time many heathen religions talked in tongues. It is not of itself necessarily of God.
            Did the tests show the same results ? Frontal lobe
            turning on of an area of our brain that we do not normally use. The Same results for believers and unbelievers ?

            I am sorry but this is a serious matter concerning life or death . We are talking about our salvation and eternal life.

            You need not answer but Are we playing with fire? Should we not study the subject for ourselves ?

    • Kavik

      A very strong argument for tongues as being divine in nature frequently referred to by proponents is a study done by the University of Pennsylvania on the phenomenon of glossolalia. This is the source study referenced in the article you link to.

      In a nutshell, the study determined via SPECT imaging that when a person exhibits glossolalia, the language producing areas of the brain are not really engaged; i.e. ‘tongues’ do not originate in the speech center of the brain. These results have been used to support its supposed divine origins or that a person is not in control of what s/he is saying.

      After reading the study, I would argue the results are exactly as what one would expect; it stands to reason the brain’s language producing center is not really being engaged simply because glossolalia is not language. It’s just free vocalization –playing with sounds which do not require the language producing centers in the brain to be overly engaged.

      The results, I believe, are somewhat inconclusive in that they can be skewed to equally support either argument.

  • Matthew

    The title of your article should be “Speaking in Tongues – The real story – From Wrong Perspective. You cannot write a correct article about speaking in tongues except from biblical perspective. Your statement that says: “I should know; I used to be a practitioner myself at one time and truly did believe in the reality of it, but realize now that I was motivated by my desire to blend in and was only fooling myself”.
    That really says it all of your article. You are writing about something you don’t know about but you think you have knowledge of. I am reminded about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. These 2 play along to fit into the group just as your “I was motivated by my desire to blend in and was only fooling myself”

    These people were only fooling themselves too. To write effectively about the Spiritual things, you have to go to the BIBLE!

    • Dave Post author

      Hi Matthew, What convinces you that the Bible is the only reliable source that you can use and that anything and everything else can be dismissed?

      • Richard

        And what convinces you that Bible is not a reliable source. Just because you have not experienced anything , doubted and then gave up does not mean that its not reliable. First of all , speaking in tongues concept came from acts in the Bible. The disciples who were ones cowards got filled with the Holy Spirit and then experienced this new concept. They did not invent it , there was no concept of Pentecostalism in Jewish tradition . they even gave their lives for this which is even confirmed by secular sources so why did they sacrifice themselves for something if they knew it was a lie or why someone would die for a made up story. Consider this example let’s say you want to climb a mountain and you don’t know that you can ever climb it . you tried 10 times , you failed and then you believed that its fake and concluded you can never climb this mountain ,then would you be able to climb the mountain. Instead you will come up with excuses that you can’t climb it but if you believe that you can do it , then may be you will climb it in the 30th or 40th attempt. You never experienced because you doubted.

        • James

          There are several reasons to doubt the veracity of the Bible, specifically the NT. Paul lies several times, such as his various accounts about his experiences on the way to Damascus. He also lies to the Galatians (I believe that’s the one) by telling them that James only told them to remember the orphans and the widows. When, in fact, James commanded a strict prohibition of eating anything offered to idols or food with the blood and participating in sexual immorality (Acts 15).

          Then, there is the issue of Paul’s status as an Apostle. He boldly proclaims that he is one of the “big A” group, but apart from Luke there is no mention of anyone giving him that title, including the person in his vision of the road. Combine that with his version of what happened after the resurrection (1 Cor. 15), and you can see that he was either uninformed or willfully lying to cover his own hide. Aside from that, after denouncing circumcision as being of no good purpose (even saying it would take someone from the faith) he personally circumcised Timothy according to Luke’s account (or whoever wrote the Acts of the Apostles).

          In Revelation (chapters 2-3) the supposed Jesus, speaking to whoever wrote the apocalyptic work, praised the Ephesians for not believing false apostles and those who taught that it was A-OK to eat meat offered to idols. The only praise given to Paul in the NT is via 2 Peter, but it was not written by Peter—something widely known by scholars. The epistle attributed to James (the brother of Jesus) reads like a point-by-point rebuke of Paul’s teachings. Paul did indicate that his message was “my gospel,” and that anyone else should be ignored.

          Yet, people just blindly follow Paul in his delusions of grandeur because what he says makes them feel good. Reading the Bible critically offers anyone an opportunity to see just how deceitful Paul was, and that he was not a 13th Apostle—Matthias replaced Judas. Pauline Christianity is aptly named, because the writings of Paul are esteemed higher and more significant that the purported words of the guy everyone claims to worship.

    • Phillip Benoit

      Yeah well a lot of great openings that science can’t explain but the bible can explain will show up. Your prayers are answered better. I do this 1 hour everyday. I did tongues for one month i can’t go into detail what happened but it was and still is the most amazing experiences ever. Please don’t call me crazy, but tongues opens doors for healing. That’s why.

  • ma

    Your proof of healings are they documented with doctors details and X-rays before and after the healing? If so could we have the records.

    • Marchello

      Please feel free to contact the people on this link. http://www.trf.org.au/healing.asp. The first guy on the list was healed of blindness. He lives in Perth. Go to the Perth contact number. I hope that is not too hard for you because no I don’t hold people’s personal medical documents duh! But I offered you contact phone numbers for you atheist geniuses to follow up.

    • MARIO

      Hi Marchello

      Why you so quick to call people atheist ? Did atheists in the bible not do miraculous miracles ? DID YOU KNOW today there are atheists also healing people and performing miracles ?

      If I had written a whole lot of miracles that happened to people, would you believe me ? If I told you that a family member could not have babies but after 17 years the wife conceived ?

      I quote “Phil sought the Lord for the infilling of the Holy Spirit. He recalls this moment. “I opened my mouth and this language poured out and I didn’t want to stop; it was as if all the rottenness of my past life was being drained from me.” INFILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS AT SALVATION? WAS PHIL NOT SAVED ?

      WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT SPEAKING IN TONGUES HEALS PEOPLE ? ROMANS 8:26 “…..THE SPIRIT ITSELF MAKES INTERCESSION FOR US WITH GROANINGS THAT CAN NOT BE UTTERED”

      QUESTION : HOW COME PEOPLE ARE UTTERING THING THAT CAN NOT BE UTTERED? i THOUGHT TONGUES WAS TO FULFILL PROPHECY AND FOR THE UNBELIEVERS NOT BELIEVERS ?

      • Marchello

        Hello again Mario

        It’s good to see you have whittled down your questions from over 40 down to 11. lol

        As I said before it’s clear you already have YOUR answers formulated. Perhaps you are an Adventist? Maybe a Cessationist?

        But to answer your last two questions.

        Nowhere in the Bible does it say that tongues are used for healing. (not sure where you got that from).

        And yes ‘the gift of languages’ is still a sign for unbelievers. And shock horror! The Apostle Paul lists OTHER uses for this great gift in 1 Corinthians 14, which you should be well versed in by now. lol

        Gregory of Nazianzus (c. 329–390): “They spoke with foreign tongues, and not those of their native land; and the wonder was great, a language spoken by those who had not learned it. And the sign is to them that believe not, and not to them that believe, that it may be an accusation of the unbelievers, as it is written, ‘“With other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people, and not even so will they listen to Me” says the Lord’” (The Oration on Pentecost, 15–17).

        … AND NOT EVEN THEN (WITH THE GIFT OF LANGUAGES) WILL UNBELIEVERS LISTEN AND BELIEVE!

        The day of Pentecost had a number of amazing miracles take place not just speaking in foreign languages. And when/if you understand its full implications you will rejoice in the great G-d who has engineered this planet, the words of the prophets, the coming of Christ, His gospel message of salvation and the eternities to come.

    • Lyrx

      There are actually. They scanned brain images during normal prayer and the frontal part that enables us to form our language is high in activity when they scanned images of the same man praying in tongues the activity of that area was significantly lower . It leads one to believe it’s confirming that the thoughts and language are NOT coming from our own minds but from the spirit ! There’s that link for ya http://youtu.be/NZbQBajYnEc

  • Jess lisa

    Dude me, my brother and my best friend went to summer camp “camp pearl wheat in Texas,sponsored by a local non specific Christian church.
    One evening the camp assembled with candles out in a clearung the woods. After hours of repetitive prayers and frenzied singing and hands raised, an uncontrollable sort of gobblygook incantations resonated from all of us.
    It felt like going down a steep hill on a bike
    The exponential speed of the sounds and the loss of the ability to control was overwhelming.
    And upon retiring later to our beds we were told we had recieved the holy ghost and we’re speaking in tongues. I believe that we are all mas hypnotized in some sort of freaky epiglottiial incidence.
    It squeegeed my 3rd eye for real.

    • Marchello

      Repetitive chanting, frenzied singing, hands in the air… oh my goodness maybe you were at a rock concert you poor thing! I suppose everyone chooses which ‘god’ they will worship. The big difference at the Christian event I suppose would be no drugs, booze, no arguments, fighting, bashing, stabbings, glassing, vomiting, no overdosing, no deaths, no pressure for sex, drunk sex, rape, gang rape (unwanted pregnancy/abortions/ unwanted-unloved kids) sexually transmitted diseases, nudity, passing out, pissing on themselves, psychotic episodes, etc, etc which I take from your post would be totally acceptable.

      • Sharon Browning

        Marchello,
        Your response to Jess Issa’s comment was weird enough for me to determine I will decline your request to communicate in private.
        Sharon Browning

        • Marchello

          I was simply saying that the Christian lifestyle or Christian events are rarely as outrageous or ‘freaky’ compared to those of the secular world. Maybe it dripped with too much sarcasm. If it was too weird for you, that’s fine.

          • Sharon Browning

            Marchello,
            How typical it is for Christians to think their lifestyles and associated activities are superior to the secular world. Demonizing the term: secular, is a popular method used by leadership to create a sense of sanctification, which means to be set apart for a special purpose. The bible is full of verses that tempt the believer to judge, while contradicting itself, then schooling believers not to judge others. The evangelicals and comparitively their Muslim extremist counterparts, are the most avid users of this delusional faith based nativism. It’s sold as true reality to recruit followers.
            I know you’ve had a transformative experience. But, all you have is faith and personally perceived evidence you can’t really prove to someone who would judge you. You can be a better boy now, but there are millions of non-believers who demonstrate good values and behavior without needing transformative rescue from BibleGod/Jesus.
            Using faith based interpretations of biblical doctrine against others like: Jesus is the only way to the Father, to be saved, to access eternal life, in order to devalue the good an unbeliever strives for is poop.
            Believers actually have nothing but their faith, there is no decent evidence. Confidence is not evidence.
            “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” That’s code for- no evidence.

            When it comes to a standard of evidence that Jesus had in mind, it went like this:
            John 14: 11-14

            “11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”

            Now that would make some nice evidence of believers would perform to the standard Jesus set. History would be totally different after a couple thousand years of Jesus doing what He said He would do.

            Secular is neither evil or wrong.
            Faith is no guarantee for truth.
            Sharon Browning

            • Marchello

              Sharon, you do not share the Christian faith so for you the secular world and its ethics and lifestyles are acceptable. That is your opinion. Maybe read a newspaper sometime.

              But even without faith in the supernatural, Christian ethics and lifestyles are FAR SUPERIOR (did you get the emphasis) than ALL OTHER LIFESTYLES!

              Read the following and tell me I’m wrong (although they’re not my words).

              Romans 12

              9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

              14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.

              17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

              “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
              if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
              In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]

              21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

              Our society would be 1000 percent better if people could just follow these principles. And there are many similar Bible passages that encourage the human to be moral, honest and loving. You only need to look at the social problems of Western society to see that humans need this gospel. As my first post noted: drugs, booze, violence, STD’s, unwanted pregnancy, are rife in the teenage world and do you really DARE tell me the secular world’s ethics are okay?

              Sharon, a few kids getting together in the bush (I’m an Aussie) singing and praying in tongues and being encouraged to follow these ethics is hardly an evil thing.

              But guess what Sharon? At the exact hour that the Holy Ghost was poured upon the believers and they spoke in tongues, the crowd gathered and some people INSTANTLY STARTED MOCKING IT saying they were drunk! So your disbelief and disparaging comments are nothing new.

              JUDE 18 …“In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.”

              • Sharon Browning

                Marchello, I don’t need preaching to.
                I need BibleGod to become a real God according to His own Word’s promises. I need BibleJesus to do what He promised.
                The BibleDeities need to communicate with and lift believers in real-time. Our lives are too stinking short for Their antics.
                I’m done, with nurturing a faith based delusion, and done with unfriendly user manuals, and done with idiosyncratic religulous sects.
                I am no longer expecting Them to do anything, because They never do.
                Lol, I predict: you will think something is wrong with me, or something happened to cause me to lose faith. Heheheh
                Nothing is ever BibleGod’s fault.

                • Marchello

                  Sharon I find YOU hard to believe! lol Can you honestly say that in your church hopping you didn’t meet ONE person who had a verifiable miracle/healing, or had an irrefutable, naturally impossible answer to prayer? We would easily have 10 people in our Pentecostal fellowship who could supply MEDICAL PROOF that they were miraculously healed in the name of Bible Jesus. I can give you their phone numbers if you think I’m full of it! Come on you keyboard warrior… I dare you!

    • Jeff Burrows

      I’m someone who has spoken in Tongues and interpreted 18 years and been excommunicated for divorce in the Open Brethren Church….Tongues is Heaven’s Morse Code..if it’s for you you”ll understand it if its not for you , you wont..or its Demonic. If you think you should speak in Tongues than you should continue to think that way. Does a person who speaks in Tongues have more rights in Heaven than someone doesn’t ? No……Speaking in Tongues means you have become a Spiritual Toddler….that’s it. And when you speak in Tongues you have Revelation , the term Being saved is actually a lie….There’s no professing a faith in Jesus that makes you saved or not saved..Christians haven’t talked to me in 8 years! and I’m not a proclaiming Christian any more……But I have glorious encounters with the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:6 Jeremiah 31 :34 given by the Holy Spirit. hope that helps

  • Sara Greer

    I have always been able to speak in a sort of language which doesn’t have a meaning- which I guess is glossolalia. I don’t see it as a spiritual thing, more a party trick. It is a very different thing to speaking in a real language, as I feel like I have temporarily and voluntarily “disconnected” the part of my speech process responsible for adding meaning. It is quite fun to do.

  • kathy2515

    Interesting blog. I have heard people speak in tongues, but never believed it being a true or understandable language. Although speaking in tongues may have psychological power, a placebo of sorts as people seem to be comforted in both speaking it and afterwords, it’s nothing more than a creative way to explain or at least deal with whatever issues the believer is experiencing. Many people who suddenly are able to speak in tongues seem to be looking for answers, and I don’t think this is a coincidence. They see this as truly spiritual. I see it as a form of catharsis as the mind is concentrating on……nothing. With the exception of actually speaking, i.e. making unintelligible sounds, the mind is basically empty of thought, of stress and issues one may be dealing with. Some say this is a spiritual event, however, meditation can have the same comforting and spiritual result. The mind is a very complex organ and many experts believe they know only about 10 percent of what the brain is capable of. Many people dealing with severe stress or simply looking for attention can experience illness when there is no medical reason for the illness, including what is known as a hysterical pregnancy. Queen bloody Mary Tudor comes to mind, something she experienced twice.
    A child with no siblings may find an invisible friend to play with and some may have an unrealistic view of their body as is seen in anorexia. Some children experience what is known as synesthesia, a rare neurological disorder where one can taste colors or literally feel music and some can have a photographic memory, the ability to remember everything like a passage in a book they read once, including page number and paragraph.

    Before ascribing something to the spiritual, look to more mundane explanations.Spiritual is a belief, not fact.

    • Jewels

      Your Idea that spirituality is a belief is also not a fact. To us, spirituality is a fact, because it is a fact. There is much, much more evidence in support of spirituality as fact than the Idea that it is a belief. Yes, It is not a coincidence that people speak in tongues when they are troubled, clearly because God wishes to help them through the hard times, your argument doesn’t make sense either, about all these references to things such as Anorexia or pregnancy symptoms, or imaginary friends or all theset things, they miss the point, you miss the point.

    • mario

      Hhi all
      Just a question to all that speak in tongues What does the bible about tongues? If you can answer these questions that come to mind then you will realise that you know very little about the subject. Here we go how many times did tongues appear in the bible. What was the real reason for tongues? Who could lay hands and tranfer the gift? Can all speak in tongues? Why do all pagan religions also speak the same tongues as so called christian tongues? Are tongue speakers more spiritual than none speakers? Does speaking in tongues prove that you are spirit filled? If anyone can answer these questions, please let us know the answers so that the uninformedmy realise what they are allowing to enter their bodies, is it thje Real Holy Spirit or an evil spirit. If its an evil spirit then instead of praising God you are in actual fact cussing God. So as you read the bible for the answers, please do not do tjings that you do not understandayou could be on dangerous ground. All your esponses welcomed. God bless

      • Marchello

        Hi Mario, here is some info on the topic.

        1 Corinthians 14 actually answers a lot of your questions.

        1 Corinthians 14 King James Version (KJV)

        1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. (Spiritual gifts were common in the early church. The Roman empire version of Christianity no doubt quashed such things.)

        2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

        This verse really throws a spanner into the wheels of the anti-tongues lobby…. “NO MAN (including scientists/linguists) UNDERSTANDS HIM (the person who speaks in tongues).

        In my experience, I was involved with drugs, alcohol, smoking and many bad attitudes before I became a Christian – and I knew I had the Holy Spirit when I spoke in tongues. Since then I have been free of that negative, hate filled lifestyle. I am more loving and less self-centered. More patient, gentle, humble, kind. This is not the work of an evil spirit.

        I have googled some of my words when I speak in tongues to see what ‘the Spirit’ is mysteriously saying. To my ongoing shock these words always seem to be URDU or HINDI which are languages related to ARABIC. In one example I looked up “bella haya”… turns out it means “beautiful life”…. well that is what God has given me.
        So I am convinced that the language of tongues can be earthly or angelic (not of this earth). And that it is mostly praising God and rejoicing.

        I wasn’t raised a Christian and it’s certainly not a popular lifestyle in Australia but for me it is the best life. How I have come to be speaking URDU words is a miracle!

        I also believe ANY Christian can lose faith. Unbelief is the default setting of the human.

        “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” Romans 11:32

        • mario

          Hi Marchello

          Firstly I am really happy that your life has changed for the better.

          However you did not answer some of my questions? WHY?? Should you not KNOW the answers so that one can Discern the spirits.

          I would love to have the answers to all the question, as this would bring a lot of clarity to Christians today for them to see if they are on the correct path??

          Would love to hear from all

          CAN ANY ONE HELP ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

          1) Who demanded signs?
          2) What does the bible say about tongues, WHEN DID IT START, WHY WAS THERE TONGUES?
          3) HOW how many times did tongues appear in the bible like Pentecost, WHY and how many years apart?
          4) What was the real reason for tongues?
          5) Where Tongues a known languages ?
          6) Who could lay hands and transfer the gift ONLY?
          7) Can all speak in tongues, WHY?
          8) Why do all pagan religions also speak the same tongues as so called Christian tongues?
          9) Are tongue speakers more spiritual than none speakers?
          10) Does speaking in tongues prove that you are MORE SPIRITUAL?
          11) Why was sign gifts already spoken in the past tense in 2 Corinthians?
          12) Why does Rev 13: 13-14 and 1 Thes 2:8-12 say that that the ANTICHRIST will deceive the world with signs and wonders, are you being deceived?
          13) WHY do Christians seek signs when Math 12:39 says that … an evil and adulterous generation seek after a SIGN?
          14) HAS GOD ever commanded or caused Christians to speak in tongues.
          15) Is there any BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN 1 Corinthians 14??
          16) WAS Pentecost a religious movement, or a religious experience?
          17) IS THERE ANYWHERE in the bible that people are told to pray, preach, sing or praise GOD in TONGUES?
          18) JOHN 20:22 when JESUS breathed the HOLY SPIRIT onto the Desciples, did they SPAEK IN TONGUES??
          19) DOES Acts 4:31, Ephes5:18-31 INCLUDE SPEAKING IN TONGUES??
          20) Why are tongues NOT mentioned as SPIRITUAL GIFTS in Romans 6-8??
          21) Tongues was for the unbeliever and never encouraged as it did NOT edify the church. WHY do so many want the least gifts?
          22) ARE THERE MANY seducing spirits in the world? Are we supposed to “try”the spirits? 1 Timothy 4:1 and 1 John4:1 and Rev 2:2???
          23) If you are spiritual should you not Judge all things? 1 Corin2:15
          24) WHY did Paul say that tongues would cease to the Corintian Church? 1 Corinth 13:8
          25) WHY would Paul say that the Christians should be like aldults and put away childish things like tongues?? 1 Corinth 13:11
          26) Bible tongues could NOT be faked, they were real languages? Acts 2:1-11
          27) WHERE in the bible does it say ONE can be taught to speak in TONGUES??
          28) Why if tongues are IMPORTANT, why are they not required by BISHOPS, DECEANS and ELDERS to speak? 1 Tim 3:1-6: and Titus 1:5.
          29) Must ONE GO BY Experience, Feelings OR by BY FAITH?
          30) ARE woman allowed to speak in tongues?
          31) Is praying in tongues THE SAME as praying in the SPIRIT?
          32) Romans 8:26 Spirit helps us pray with groans that can not be uttered?? Can it be a pray language, where you can NOT UTTER it???
          33) Corinth 14:13-17 ..STATES that PRAYING IN TONGUES must also be INTERPRETED? WHY? If, it is a heavenly language where you do not wanty the SATAN to understand, WHY INTERPRET IT????
          34) HOW can praying in tongues be for SELF EDIFICATION when scripture says says that spiritual gifts is for the EDIFICATION OF the CHURCH and not SELF??1 Corinthians 12:7??
          35) IF tongues is NOT FOR everyone how can it be FOR SELF-EDIFICATION?? 1 Corith 12:11: 28-30
          36) HOW can praying in tongues be PRIVATE pray language if the GIFT of tongues is a sign to unbelievers?? 1 Corinth 14:22
          37) WHAT was the reason for tongues??? 3000 saved?? FOR SELF? Acts2:41
          38) WAS tongues not a curse?? DEUT 28:49; JER 5:15 :
          39) IF Roman Catholics, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormons, Moslems, Buddhists, witch doctors, spiritualists and numerous heathen religions also speak in tongues??? Is it from GOD??
          40) DID the sign gifts cease? Why could Paul at the end of his ministry not be able to heal himself, Trophimus, Timothy 1 Tim 5:23 and 2 Timothy4:20.
          41) WHY does 1 Corinth 13:13 say “NOW abides FAITH, HOPE and LOVE…BUT the greatest is LOVE??? Where are the other sign gifts gone??1 Corinth 13: 8-13 and 13: 8.
          42) WHEN Jesus comes we will NOT need FAITH and HOPE. WE live by FAITH not by SIGHT are the gift signs sight???? ONLY LOVE will remain.

          If anyone can answer these questions, please let us know the answers so that the uninformed my realize what they are allowing to enter their bodies, is it the Real Holy Spirit or an evil spirit.

          If its an evil spirit then instead of praising God you COULD in actual fact cursing God.

          So as you read the bible for the answers, please do not do things that you do not understand as you could be on dangerous ground??

          Would love for anyone to help answer the question/comments

          • Marchello

            Mario rather than seeking answers from me or other people, why don’t you ask God about this Holy Spirit and its miraculous gifts? Why? I don’t believe you’re honestly seeking the TRUTH. You’ve made your mind up about spiritual gifts and your 42 questions confirm that. Dozens of people have provided answers to most of your questions already.

            • MARIO

              Hi Marchell

              Thanks for answering. Firstly I had all the answers to the questions before I sent to you. Todays generation people are Lazy, they find it easier to believe what they are told than search the bible themselves.I sent the questions so anyone reading them might go themselves to see if they will find the answers. and not get caught up with different philosophies, they must research what the bible says. Not believe every doctrine out there and there are many. So after answering all the questions are you still convinced that tongues is for today?? If you need any of the answers I will let you have them.

              Paul mentioned the sign gifts were for a time and would end. 1 Corinth 13:8. Lets take Pauls ministry as an example. Paul could heal, his showdown healed, hanky chiefs healed and towards the end of his ministry we see that the gifts had started cease. Paul could now not heal Timothy he resorted to home remedies, could not heal Trophimus as he had to leave him sick at Ephesus. ( 1 Tim 5:23 and 2 Tim 4:20 ). WERE THE SIGN GIFTS FADING, CEASING AND PASS AWAY???

              No mention of tongues from around 70 AD. WHEN DID IT ALL START AGAIN? AROUND 1 JANUARY 1901 AT A NIGHT SERVICE IN TOPEKA, KANSAS, A WORMAN NAMED AGNES OZMAN babbled gibberish after Charles Parham laid hands on her and then spread 1906 to Azusa Street. This is were it all began.

              Did the church miss out on tongues all those years, were they not needed then. Why tongues more important today than other gifts? they are easier to counterfeit. Healings, handling of poison and snakes are much harder to counterfeit. WHY SEEK THE LEAST OF THE GIFTS????

              Why is tongues NOT the FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT ? IF tongues is to EDIFY THE SPEAKER why does Paul say in 1 Corinth 14:14 we NEED UNDERSTANDING FOR EDIFICATION???

              Now seriously if todays tongues are not from the Spirit of God, where are they coming from?? other spirits ??? THERE IS NO SITTING ON THE FENCE WE ARE EITHER HEARING FROM GOD OR SATAN ( THE COUNTERFEITOR).

              Read the scriptures ask the Holy Spirit to lead us into all TRUTH. SATAN heals, speaks in tongues and does miracles today.

              Why not look at Mark16:17 If you speak in new tongues then you can also cast out devils, can pick up serpents with their hands, drink deadly poison will not harm them, LAY HANDS on the SICK and they SHALL RECOVER. Not like today only recover if my faith is strong or their faith is weak, or in time you might get better. Can you do all theses things??

              Romans 8: 26 … the spirit itself makes intercession for us with GROANINGS with can “NOT BE UTTERED” if THE SPIRITS GROANINGS can “NOT BE UTTERED”.
              HOW COME YOU ARE WHY ARE ÜTTERING THEM??

              NOT BEING HASH, but the bible says NOT everyone calling me Lord Lord and believing in error will be saved. We are all precious to God and we should know what we are doing if not one could be lead astray?

              • Dave Post author

                Serious side question Mario,

                You write …

                // Now seriously if todays tongues are not from the Spirit of God, where are they coming from?? other spirits ??? THERE IS NO SITTING ON THE FENCE WE ARE EITHER HEARING FROM GOD OR SATAN ( THE COUNTERFEITOR).//

                Why would those be the only two options you would consider? Or to put that another way, why would you dismiss the far more reasonable explanation that there is nothing supernatural going on here at all, and that normal human psychological observations explain what is happening?

                You also appear to be having a few issues with your caps-lock key, I’d recommend having it looked at.

                Dave

                • mario

                  Hi Dave

                  Sorry about the capital letters on previous post. Sorry I took so long to reply.

                  I stressed the point as I did with the questioned that I asked. If a Christian does not know what the bible says about speaking in tongues. Should they experiment and be taught how to speak in tongues? can one be taught? I have asked a few tongue speaking Christians some of these questions but sadly they do not even know what speaking in tongues is all about. When asked why they want to speak in tongues, they do not know what to say. Some say it is the Spirit baptism, others say evidence of being born again.

                  Majority of them do not know, why there was tongues, why it happened, how many times it happened, how many years apart from each other did it happen again??

                  Sorry but just a word of caution. Before anyone just accepts what a preacher or what other people are doing in the Name of God, they must read and study the word themselves and read up on the subject matter, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to know the TRUTH.

                  Just concerned on how the so called people of God are manipulating the poor souls.

                  Have you the answers for the questions I submitted? If, so could anyone out there share the answers?

  • Sharon Browning

    I’m interested in your list of science based sources regarding studies of speaking in tongues (SIT) if you have it handy.

    I’ve been SIT, for 37 years. My tongue is not babbling, nor is any of it understandable. My tongue resembles known languages and varies. I’m naturally good at imitating accents so I’m aware this could affect what my possible “gibberish” sounds like. I’m a skeptic, so I needed to study the scripture regarding SIT before I made the effort to manifest it.
    The teaching ministry associated to my beginning effort was, The Way Biblical Research and Teaching and Fellowship ministry. It was often labeled a cult and some families employed kidnapping their wayward loved ones using deprogrammers to save their brainwashed family members.
    For me, the moment of receiving /bringing it into manifestation was like jumping off a cliff, as I imagined landing in Gods hands. It didn’t just come over me outside of my will, it was a moment of decision. I breathed in and began speaking as I breathed out. The tongues began. I felt nothing but surprised wonder that it was happening. It was interesting to me that I didn’t feel something more like bliss.
    I can start and stop my tongues when speaking out loud, and I can do it in my head without moving my mouth. I can even think other thoughts while it’s “running”. Heheh, I have awakened from sleep to find I’m SIT. When this happened, I stayed awake continuing to SIT, thinking I was aiding prayer for “something” needed, yet wholly unknown/ beyond understanding.
    I would be delighted to offer my sampling to someone’s study.
    To complicate things, I’m no longer a practicing Christian. But I can still SIT. I have so much to say on the matter. But I don’t want to address all the doctrine point by point. Mainly, because I’m done defending anything BibleGod-like. These days I’m a BibleGod critic. Meaning, I find BibleGod a most tedious and ineffective communicator to us. BibleJesus is equally as bad at communicating as Dad. And, I just don’t see the progress promised to believers across the historical timeline. I don’t see BibleGod/BibleJesus doing anything in real time. The documents they left as a record, and as the playbook are not user friendly. Between the contradictory cryptic documents, lack of guidance from the deities, and lack of results in the body of believers I began a reevaluation of what I believed about 10 years ago. I don’t know what I am exactly now…but I know I’m not a pleased believer.
    Tongues is only part of an equipment package of 9 manifestations that believers are endowed with when they are “born again”. The worship manifestations are Tongues, interpretation and prophecy. In all the charismatic meetings I’ve ever been in, which are many and not just from one sect, I have never seen these manifestations operated in a way that made me believe anyone was mature in the practice. I’ve taken their charismatic classes to see if there was any foundation for unity. There isn’t. I don’t think anyone knows what they’re doing.
    The quality of supernatural messaging from interpretation and prophecy heard during these rituals has not yielded much substance in terms that would be considered effective communication to the body present at that time or for the body of believers at large.
    In my private use of tongues as an additive to prayer, it was my expectation that doing it was “perfect prayer”. A lot of good that does if the user can’t understand it…, and no results can be observed worth documenting.
    It is my opinion BibleGod and Bible Jesus if actual supreme beings as described could have penetrated our thick hides with much better messaging yielding significantly better results to us short lived creatures.

    • Jewels

      Wow wow wow I am so sorry Im sure I sound like an idiot for sure and you have my apologies. After reading my post I feel like an idiot. I mis wrote it and I completely meant that they preceded the people coming from Europe by thousands of years, and I do have evidence for this. As Oxford has found remains of vikings dating 4000 years plus on the east coast of America. In my opinion this goes on to support the idea that life was wiped clean multiple times, which I do believe. Support of this is also found with examples like the Egyptian pyramids. People ask how it was possible? Artifacts show electrical like contraptions. The fact that life was destroyed and knowledge destroyed along with it would support this fact.

    • Chris Petersen

      I used to think similarly about the difficulty between the existence of disbelief and the omnipotence/ eternal love of God. (IE either God cannot save all or God doesn’t want to save all, either way He loses Diety)

      But then I adopted the belief that humans get exactly what they wanted in the end (Following much of C.S. Lewis’ theorizing) and in light of the idea that people who wanted God get Him and those who didn’t don’t, the brief doesn’t face the same issue.

      Actually, in the idea that we solidify ourselves with every choice we make until we make no more choices, perhaps the Catholics are right about “Purgatory” this idea too doesn’t find the flaw of the dilemma above.

      It also may be because we as humans demand to get information in a certain (maybe impossible) way. We demand things be provable except the tools that prove things (our senses/ reality/ history)

      All that said, I still find the Christian God 95% agreeable and in the places I do not, I’m willing to trust something beyond my reasoning (after all, if I must agree on everything ((which I would with perfect knowledge)) who is than God? God or I?)

    • Kavik

      I would be curious to know what your particular language sounds like – you say it resembles known languages and varies. Varies how? Would it be possible for you to provide a written sample? What languages, other than English do you know or have been exposed to?

      I’m a trained Linguist and have studied the phenomenon of glossolalia (a/k/a to some as SIT) and am always curious to get a few ‘first hand’ samples. If you are naturally good at imitating accents, this would affect how you produce your glossolalia, hence the question on what other languages you might be familiar with.

    • aaquadrat

      I cannot really see an “argument” here. While I have a high opinion of John G Lake, I regard your mentions of “Vikings that precede native Americans by thousands of years”, Atlantis, and the “big bang in the Genesis” as pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo. Vikings date around 1000 AD, so they cannot precede anyone by “thousands of years”. I encourage you to dig deeper.

  • Jewels

    When talking about tongues, it is important to understand it is a gift, that some believers receive this gift in particular, while others may receive the gift of pure faith no matter the circumstances. Others receive the gift of visions and so on. Speaking in tongues is not the ultimate of being a Christian. Also, for everyone in this thread, science has yet to prove anything against God. Infact, science has only proven God to exist even more! Speaking in tongues, for example, involves chemical changes in the body, which God is known to be able to do!
    Kenneth Hagin, a rebound preacher was diagnosed of an incurable blood disease, yet after having a vision and understanding what he must do, when he awoke all signs of sickness were gone. He was practically dead, full of sickness, yet the pain is what brought him closers to God. People on this thread ask why God allows suffering. Perhaps He allows it because it is during these times that he is able to become closer with us. John G Lake, also a rebound preacher in the twentieth century, ran healing ministries, where people dying of disease and sickness were instantly cured by his preachings. Also facts from the Bible are constantly being verified.
    The book of Genesis sounds a lot like the big bang, how would someone 2000 years ago understand a topic unless he is truly of God?
    The Bible explains how entire civilizations were wiped out, Viking remnants have been found in North America that would precede native Americans by thousands of years! Atlantis, another city that was wiped out, and science is just now beginning to catch up!
    All science has done and will continue to do is attempt to explain God’said creation. Spirituality and science can coexist, it’s unfortunate for those who believe otherwise.

  • urtheprotptye

    It amazes me how we, as humans, think we are so intelligent… It is to our detriment…God is not some mere fairy tale that we can explain, intellectualize or comprehend with our brains. His ways are beyond our ways, His thoughts are beyond our thoughts…to the individual who wrote this blog, you were never gifted with the ability to speak in tongues. If you were, this post would not exist. As someone who prays in a heavenly tongue, its not something that i can practice or make up….i haven’t been brainwashed. In moments of prayer, God has allowed me to interpret the language. I am blown away each time He allows it..but that is my journey. Ive learned God wants us to have a humble heart and spirit. He will reveal himself if you relinquish the control that you perceive yourself to have.. There are somethings in this life you will never understand until you pass to the other side…

  • dena

    All the atheist will say it’s not God but it’s the work of the devil,you guys will believe devil but not God because you are scared of devil but God won’t scare you so he doesn’t exist

    • Dave Gamble Post author

      dena, this may come as a bit of a surprise to you, but atheists, the folks who do not believe an imaginary friend is real, also do not believe that an imaginary enemy is real either. No supernaturalism is required at all to explain speaking in tongues.

  • Voice of Reason

    You can’t make references to studies from 30-40 years ago and claim to be giving the real story about ANYTHING. I noticed that you totally ignored this URL the first time it was posted, so I’ll post again:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html

    This is an article about a study done THIS century about speaking in tongues, which has proved conclusively that practitioners are NOT in control of what is happening. Just because people can consciously imitate it does not mean that it is not a valid phenomenon, in the same way that is easy to imitate someone having a seizure, but actual seizures are still a real thing.

    So, the REAL real story is that modern scientists have no idea what causes speaking in tongues… All they DO know is that it is NOT something that people are doing deliberately.

    • Dave Gamble Post author

      Burden of proof rests with those making the claim that this is supernatural, and so far there is exactly zero evidence that speaking in tongues is supernatural. Not fully understanding something does not warrant making a leap to “therefore magic”

      • Chrispy

        Unfortunately, if “Magic” was real, it would be completely improvable. The rules have been set. “All things are cause of molecules and energy” ironically because all we can observe are molecules and energy.

        If there were anything beyond it we could not know it, because it’s the same concept as if we were 2D creatures living in a 3D world- 2D may not observe 3D, yet 3D may observe 2D.

        Not to side with Dena, just to add depth towards the difficulty of the point and the simplicity you paint it on.

        • Dave Gamble Post author

          Well, as I’ve already pointed out, the claim is essentially that there is indeed magical intervention taking place within our “molecules and energy” reality. Are you aware of any independently verifiable objective evidence of such intervention?

          • Chrispy

            … Going back to what I posted, there cannot be verifiable evidence for “magic” (we are using this silly word for supernature yes?) which for some reason means that it cannot be true? isn’t it this realm of thinking where we resort to probable theories rather than tests of molecules and energy?

            If there were truths beyond nature, they cannot be found through the study of nature unless we study it’s concepts (the philosophy of it all). this can be our only clue. It is the philosophical questions that drives beliefs in supernature.

            It’s the fact man is born desiring meaning in a universe without one, or that man desires more than survival in a universe without any bias to preference that drives the God theory. It’s not that there are gaps that we do not know how to fill, it’s that there are gaps that an ultimate meaning, or ultimate personhood only could fill.

            I’m not even about trying to sway you either way, I’m just explaining how silly this idea “if we cannot prove it without question, it does not exist” thinking. According to that standard, you couldn’t prove history, or even that you yourself exist…

  • peter h

    God is a Amazing Loving Father ,
    I should think He Feels sad and amused by His Children’s comments !!
    I agree with most of the opinions on this blog ,
    due to the fact that I am a Christian , but also a realist ,
    I understand that I don’t understand .
    God has done so many things for me ( all of which could be explained away by being utterly rational ).
    But I Love my wife or is it just chemical reaction ….mmmmmm !!
    Science can tell you how things work , but never why ,
    maybe it’s because God does Love us .
    I speak in tongues , but I know Christian’s who don’t .
    Freddie Mercury said Nothing really matters at all ,
    How silly of course it does !!
    god bless us .

    • Dave Gamble Post author

      Peter … I do truly get that you believe all that for what can best be described as cultural and emotional reasons, and that you are part of a community that asserts such claims.

      But stop and ask yourself this … how exactly do you know that any of that is actually true, how could you ever possibly verify and test such claims?

      If indeed you don’t understand (and that is a truly honest statement), and all the things that god has done for you can be rationally explained without needing a god to explain it, the does that introduce the distinct possibility that such beliefs are simply cultural artefacts?

      • Chrispy

        I know that the question wasn’t asked of me but I hope you wouldn’t mind me jumping in to give an answer. (After all I believe you’re more looking to make this point politely than get Peter’s answer specifically)

        To start I would like to examine the qualifier for the question. How do we verify if something is true? There’s a few ways to go from here- either we delve into the hopeless realm of knowing nothing philosophically due towards everything just being a chemical explosion of the brain, or we agree from the start what makes something credible and we go from there lol.

        I’m afraid this question isn’t as concrete as mathematics or molecules. If this God thing really was true, how COULD it be infallibly proven? Couldn’t any miracle be a trick of the eyes, or just a scientific phenomena that we don’t have an answer to yet?

        So when it comes to a claim of a anything exceeding nature, I’m afraid it’s impossible to use nature specifically to prove it.

        A lot of people take to probability, saying “there’s a greater chance a “super person” is beyond nature than for what we see happen to be natural”. Me personally, I don’t receive the same feeling or pleasure from anything else I’ve found than when I worship or pray intimately. I’m not talking about a heightened happiness or a sense of purpose, I’m talking about something on your stomach that is unique and great. During my skeptic years this feeling left, and couldn’t be recreated.

        So I guess the question is what would you find to be proof enough? Note too that the bar you set might be influenced by your desire for there to be a God or not.

        • Dave Gamble Post author

          Hi Chrispy … in essence, the Christian claim is that god manifests in our reality, and that is essentially a testable claim.

          If indeed there is nothing to be measured or detected, then in what way exactly does the proposed god concept differ from a fantasy?

          • Chrispy

            Thanks for the questions! I’m afraid the statement “all things that are true are verifiable” is a self destructive statement… After all it dissallows us from believing anything historically, or from believing our senses accurately show us reality. The concept “science is the only begetter of truth” is a flawed concept: you can’t prove that scientifically.

            Yet I find the jump between “good cause to believe” and “fairy tale” to be a large stretch. I have good cause to believe my family loves me (they could be lying, but it’s unlikely), that Australia really exists (I trust the news people on this one) and that world war 2 did happen (it’s unlikely it’s a lie).

            So I’m afraid the question isn’t so much “can we prove this scientifically” (note there are a ton of things we must believe without/before science. We just don’t realize them) as it is “do we have good cause to believe.”

            Isn’t this almost the same though? This probability thinking? After all, not to go too far into philosophy, don’t we know 2+2=4 because it had never done otherwise? That the odds are so astronomically impossible that this is chance you’d have to be an absolute lunatic to believe in one instance 2+2=5?

            So it’s best to apply probabilistic thinking towards things we cannot test directly. The odds are far far greater WW2 happened than a coverup. The odds are far far greater that my 5 senses are accurately taking in information than not. Perhaps the question needs to move away from “Irrefutable proof” towards “what makes the most sense” (after all, this realm of inquiry can only yield this method)

  • Leonard Outlander

    Any person idiot or not or religious or not is able speak in “tongues”, if everyone is capable of uttering unintelligible vowel sounds (it’s really very easy) it then follows that everyone is capable of attracting the attention of god, there are no exceptions.
    Those who believe their tongue speaking is a special direct communication with an indefinable entity are either raving narcissists or they’re severely delusional.
    I understand americans have led themselves to believe they are exceptional, they are certainly exceptional when it comes to inventing their wild array of ever changing religious movements, based on even wilder interpretations of a book called the bible. I’ve visited many american religious blogs and websites where competition is rife on whose version of the book is best and most true, a strange obsessive american pastime.

    I must say Americans are exceptionally talented when it comes to exporting junk food, junk movies, junk capitalism, junk war, junk technology, junk drugs and junk religion to the rest of the world. It’s getting very messy everywhere. Rock n Roll was good.

    I’m making broad statements here about religious loons in particular who believe god speaks only to them in a unique way, obviously and fortunately there are many more sane educated americans who have contributed much good to the on going human experience.
    It’s one world, no one gets off Scott free, get used to it tongue speakers you are not exceptional, you’re human, get a life and be kind to everyone.

  • Monique A.

    1 Corinthians 14:2
    For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

    Why should people understand what you are saying, speaking in tongues is for your own edification? The Bible says it very clearly.

    • Dave Gamble Post author

      1 Corinthians 14:22
      Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not

      // Why should people understand what you are saying //
      Because the bible clearly says that that tongues are a sign for those that do not believe … The bible says that very clearly.

      No recourse to the supernatural is required to explain any of this. I’m not a believer, and yet I can quite happily speak in tongues.

    • MARIO

      Monique A.
      January 20, 2015 at 15:10

      1 Corinthians 14:2
      For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

      Why should people understand what you are saying, speaking in tongues is for your own edification? The Bible says it very clearly.

      Why not look at Mark16:17 If you speak in new tongues then you can also cast out devils, can pick up serpents with their hands, drink deadly poison will not harm them, LAY HANDS on the SICK and they SHALL RECOVER. Not like today only recover if my faith is strong or their faith is weak, or in time you might get better. Can you do all these things?? WHY NOT??

      Romans 8: 26 … the spirit itself makes intercession for us with GROANINGS with can “NOT BE UTTERED” if THE SPIRITS GROANINGS can “NOT BE UTTERED”.
      HOW COME YOU CAN ÜTTER THEM??

  • Ciaran

    Fascinating article and I thank you for sharing. For almost one year now I have been looking for God following an accident in January 2014 that changed my life. My search took me back to my original faith (the Catholic Church) but after a while I felt empty again and lost. My search led me to a bible reading group and I reluctantly attended a meeting as I had been embedded in the Catholic religion since birth and to search for God elsewhere seemed like betrayal.

    At this meeting on 14/1/2015 the Pastor called on the congregation to stand and pray and what I heard freaked me out completely. People all around me began to babble frantically in what I can only describe as a frenzied manifestation. I felt frightened and threatened and thought that I had walked into some sort of cult. Don’t get me wrong, I was told about the speaking in tongues thing but had never witnessed it before….phewww

    I left that meeting with an invitation to come again next week. I said I would but I was already looking for excuses in my mind that I could put forward for NOT going back. I went home and digested what I had witnessed that night and thought those people to be bunch of weirdo’s. After all, nothing they were saying made and sense whatsoever. One guy sounded Russian and another knelt on the floor with his face in a chair and made what I can only describe as, ‘bleating’ noises.

    I resisted the temptation then and there to turn to my friend as say, “What in the name of God did you bring me too?”

    15/1/2015 Midnight exactly….I went out to my garage to have a cigarette before heading to bed and in mid stride and without conscious thought I began to speak words that made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I could hear myself talking but I had no idea what started it or why I was doing it. This continued for 2 minutes and I began to cry while it was happening and then a wave of emotion flooded over me like I was inside the safest place on earth during a storm. After it stopped I dropped to me knees to pray and it started again.

    I have never felt connected to God before and what happened I can’t yet explain. I’ve been told I’ve been filled with the Holy Spirit and Jesus has accepted me finally because I went in search of him and I genuinely repented for my sins and sought his forgiveness.

    #Dave. I found you because I hit the net today looking for answers. My open mind leads me to look at believers and sceptics alike. You stated at the end of this blog, “I’m not presenting you with an alternative opinion, but rather with hard solid scientific proof that it is not real.” I read some results of some random testing on students but I didn’t see any scientific proof in your blog.

    Right now I don’t know what’s right and what’s wrong but I can say that I have never felt this loved in my entire life and I know its not in my head.

    Thanks again for sharing

    • mario

      Hi Stephanie

      Your link about tests on tongues, are their any tests done on non believers that speak in tongue, if so can you direct us to the relevant site. What was the reason for tongues at Pentecost? how many times did tongues happen in Acts, reason for tongues in Acts?

      30 AD Acts 2 Pentecost – tongues ( various earthly languages).
      33 AD Acts 8 Samaria Philip has to get Apostles Peter and John
      34 AD Acts 9 Paul conversion
      41 AD Acts 10 Cornelius (Peter sheet vision)
      54 AD Acts 19 Emphases (john the Baptist believers)

      Tongues 30 AD : 3 years later Samaria
      4 years later Pauls conversion
      11 years later Cornelius
      24 years later John the Baptist believers

      Interesting to see that tongues were mentioned at various intervals of times, unbelievers were always there, unbelieving Jews. Tongues sign for the unbeliever not believer.

      If tongues was important and a help in your faith, WHY ARE pastors, deacons and elders ARE NOT required to speak IN TONGUES see 1 Timothy 3:1-7. TITUS 1. How can unbelievers and normal Christians speak in tongues but the pastors , elders and Deacons is not a requirement ??

      Just a few interesting thoughts

  • Mark Le

    To all the dumb shits who still believe its something from the bible didnt read acts 2: 1- 20 stupid ass peoole dont know how to read

    • Chrispy

      Um I just read the passage in Acts (again) and I’m confused, because the scripture(s) you cited are evidence for speaking in tongues being in the Bible… It’s literally what they were doing. (Speaking in other tongues ((languages)) through the Holy Spirit)

      You best be careful when you speak so condescending and matter of fact, because it tends to really bite you in the butt (like here)

  • Fentu

    I was looking for some objective explanation on speaking in tongues because I do not believe it is divine. It is invented by man. It is invented by people who wants to rule people’s mind in order to manipulate them to do things what they would not do otherwise. It is about power. A self-proclaimed pastor – because who decides that he/she is suitable for spiritual leading?; only himself/herself – wants to chain his flock to himself to ensure his financial position.
    These people claim that they can help miracles to happen to you. I think that miracle is called miracle because it is rare. Why should you experience miracles everyday? To convince you that you are truly belong to God (but they mean to belong to them).

    I am not an atheist, I am a Catholic. I believe that we do not have to adjust the religion to our wishes. We are for the religion and not the religion is for us. The whole New Age is about brainwashing. People turned away from the historical religions because of their own reasons but they realised that something is missing. So they try to twist the words of the Bible, abusing psychological techniques to please themselves. I read once a very interesting writing on the net about the techniques used to brainwash people. The writer had to hide his identity because he revealed “trade secrets”, and because these same techniques are also in use in the secular world, in marketing and political convincing, i.e. the most powerful people of the world.

    What I noticed that there is a close correlation between the “Christian” and pagan/shamanistic methods to subvert the mind. In Africa, a lot of people still believe in their ancestors, ghosts, good and evil spirits, magic objects, superstitions. According to them, it does not hurt if you go to see a medicine man or witchdoctor, besides practicing their religion, be it Christianity or Islam. It is also not uncommon to go to Catholic church this Sunday, to a Pentecostal another Sunday. The evangelical/pentecostal pastors invite them to visit their “church”, saying that they do not have to abandon their original religions. And people go because they are curious. And somehow these people gradually change and become the new followers of the pastor. They start to walk around with a Bible, carrying everywhere so that they should not miss any spell of free time to read it, and slowly they start to become changed people with whom it is difficult to argue, discuss, converse. As if you are hitting a wall. Majority of these born-again Christians are women. Maybe because at home they are oppressed and the only place they can release their frustrations is at these “evangelical explosions”. When some of the believers become knowledgeable with the techniques, suddenly they leave their church and establish a new one, where they introduce themselves as pastors, bishops (!) The believers have to go to church at least twice a week because the brainwashing effects wean away with time, so it has to be reinforced frequently, preferably in every 3-4 days. Better if you practice daily! Then you are totally overpowered.

    I never spoke in tongues and never wish to do so. Because why I feel uncomfortable when they shout and scream and cry in top of their voice? When I wake up at night and hear their “prayers”, feel their music, I want to run away and hide? The vibrations shake my innermost, their guttural voices and “babbles” stir me up, in all aspects negatively. It is orchestrated, there is a pattern, it is purposefully done. If you are in the spiritually enhanced state, you should not know what is happening. But the pastor leads with the type of screams, the volume, as if “now the men should be louder”, “now is the women’s turn”. Why their baby cries during the whole ordeal everyday? I am sure that the baby feels the same way as me. She is tortured days in and days out but she cannot run away. That baby does not have a choice, she has been maimed in mind by her parents. But still I have my own will, and I will resist. Because this speaking in tongues is satanic. It is brutal. It is there to break you. To own you.

    Dave, I am happy that there are people out, like you, who could find a way to get out of the trap, who could come up for oxygen from the haze. You are very brave. I wish you strength and perseverance.

  • Teo Boon Leng

    Does believing in something make it true? Are emotional experiences always suspect? How do past experiences compared with present similar ones, but with changed emotions and attitudes, figure in the construct of truth? Hi. Just got to this page, and I’ve come across several interesting views.

    I am a believer because of things that have happened to me in my past. Like how in one of my morning meditations, I was prompted to approach the first person I met during breakfast in the hostel I was staying, and he was stunned that I engaged him in a conversation about Jesus for the first time ever. I didn’t know the reason till several years after, that it was because the night before he had a nightmare in which he called out my name as he sought to get help from Jesus. This was even though it was another hostel mate who had been talking to him about the Christian faith. Moreover, I was not among his close friends. He did not become a Christian then, but it started him exploring, and only years later did I discover he had accepted Christ.

    But I digress a bit here. The issue on this blog is that of speaking in tongues. Somebody argued that whilst he had experienced feelings that convinced him of the spiritual truth of tongues at a stage when he believed in the phenomenon, he no longer has those feelings now even if he physically replicates them, because he no longer believes in it. Just as people can easily fake praying, being happy or sad, in fact anything, so speaking in tongues can be faked. So one question is, what does it mean to fake something. Too complicated to give it justice in this limited space, but suffice to say for now that attitude has a lot to do with it.

    The outward appearance of speaking in tongues could be the same, but it is the heart that makes the experience real or false. The bible has spoken about having the trappings of the spirit, but denying the power thereof. And there is the case of the magician, recorded in the book of Acts, who tried to replicate the powerful healing and deliverance of the apostles by calling on the name of Jesus, but failed because of his incongruous attitude, or at least that is what the passage focuses on.

    Another point about faking… One of the most popular video presentations on ted.com (TED being the annual conference featuring eminent speakers on varied disciplines) is an updated spin on body language. If one assumes a positive posture that reflects confidence for long enough and frequently enough, one can develop confidence. In other words, “fake it till you make it”. Could it be that many believers in the supernatural tongue are in a way faking it to develop it? And of course there are times when the form of the act is missing, but the power is still manifested, because the belief is there. So attitude is a big factor.

    I have desisted from passing judgment on what others do as they seek that warm and meaningful worship experience. God sees only the heart, but I am not God. Neither is science.

    I would also be wary of passing judgment on those who do not believe in glossolalia. I would in fact be glad for them, for as they remain serious about seeking the truth, God will reveal Himself to them eventually.

    God’s peace be with all.

  • mario

    Hihi all
    Just a note. Are people that speak in tongues are holier than those who do not? People that speak in tongues are walking by sight and nt by faith. 1) they do not believe signs that have already been done. 2) they are curious thrill seeker, ask any tongue speaker why was there tongues at Penetecost they would not know. 3) they something for themselves. 4) excuse for their unbelieve. This is why the ALPHA course is doing so well.

    • Lucy

      Mario, I take it that English is not your native language. Are you saying the modern tongue speaking trend is become fashionable mainly amongst those disillusioned and cynical because previously held religious outlooks and certainties have been so thoroughly debunked via the spread of scientific knowledge and reason? That this has resulted in the widespread mental and emotional babble, anger and confusion? People in a mindless alpha state are generally easier to control and manipulate, why is this so difficult to understand and who in their right mind could possibly want to be controlled or manipulated by questionable authorities?

      • Chrispy

        I’m not quite sure what you believe has been debunked. The God question is one of philosophy.

        How can the study of molecules and energy ever prove something higher than molecules and energy? Don’t you see how the thinking there is intrinsically flawed?

        It’s not the spread of reason that has combatted Theism, it’s the spread of a worldview that sneaks in as a subtext that ironically isn’t a necessity of rational thought!

        But we all interpret the data we receive based upon prior beliefs. There is no pure neutralism. If we believe that God is possible, than we shall interpret data differently than the one who thinks God isn’t.

        If we find a cloud formation in the sky that says “I’m God and I’m real”, one man would say “wow there’s a God!” One would say “wow how random is that!” and another would say “those Theists are manipulators and did this!

        All received the same data, and all received different conclusions. Pure science stops at “what are those clouds made of, and how do they normally behave?”

        If I’m so off topic I apologize. I wanted to tackle the type of thinking that most follow who believe these things have been debunked. Being a skeptic myself so long, I understand the reservations.

  • Lucy

    Oxyoptica gala boitkopednirso jedmik ksorjidge wega snoix nilmasoji sigpojl roripootit heganospo vigsrecth eskuptpoop dingolwiji berukzinjicci snogwrotica.

    I suddenly just now, after reading the irrefutable testimony by tongue speakers, was filled to the brim with demonhoodic overwhelmingnism, then, quite overcome with uncontrollable cadencelike sonoristic sponta-iniquity and inspiritualistical emotionlessnicity, I found the above mysterious foreign sounding words just erupting from my sub-unconsciously conscious mind, I was all alone and helplessly compelled to write them down…. (I already used spell check)
    Can a glossophiliac holiness expert please interpret my experience .. Do I need to know if I’m saved or not…. or do I just need a neuro-scientific shrink to explain away my anxiety about being a fallible human? Oh, wait! I just remembered, I forgot to make a tape recording, maybe I just imagined it all.

    • Chrispy

      I need help too! Somehow I keep believing that the universe has meaning simply because I have given my life one! I know it’s wrong, but when I do that, I cover up the empty reality that everything has no meaning by thinking that if I say it does, than to me it does!

      I want to believe that only meaning begets meaning, but that doesn’t look like molecules so I’m not allowed to believe it :( all my super smart friends with PHD’s and big words seem to be so good at reactions/reactions that they can’t help me much in philosophy…

      It’s the same thing with morality :( I keep trying to objectively tell people they’re wrong about things even though I can’t escape the fact that right and wrong boil down to simply what the majority likes or wants :/

      I keep trying to believe that life is better than death but it’s just not. I have chemical reactions in my brain that make me want to live more than die. I’m glad I get to listen to them, because man, if we really believed there was no objective right or wrong, we could pick it! And I want to be able to control people…

      I also want to believe that my mind is giving me accurate portrayals of reality, but I can’t! Everything I think is simply a chemical reaction of the mind, so therefore if it say’s it’s real, the data must be right! It must be real! My sensors are never wrong. There is no question that I am presented by data from my 8 senses, I just want to accept that all the data is accurate, and that that’s the ONLY way I can know things! I am a group of molecules looking at molecules.

      So where I need help is not whether or not I can believe these things. I like to believe these things! They feel good. The thing is whether or not I have a rational basis for believing these things…

      But who cares? I’m just going to borrow beliefs that can only come about from some sort of Theism while poking daggers at Theism. It’s fun! Mommy and Daddy lied about the Easter Bunny, Santa, and Tooth Fairy, so I learned from a REALLY young age that if sounds incredible, it’s a lie!

      Poking fun? Yeah :)

      If it engulfs you with rage, you probably shouldn’t be dishing out medicine you can’t take, which probably means that your last post was meant to be more combative, which probably means you should stay away from sarcasm. Ugly means of verbal war for sure (carries the undertone that you find your “opponent” stupid)

      If it just makes you smile, than right back at ya :P

      • Lucy

        No Chrispy, nothing directed at you in particular, just my own outrageously flippant view on emotional religious manipulation. Whatever blows your hair back is just fine with me. That Jim Jones persuaded +-1000 people to swallow poisoned kool-aid is always something to keep in mind when getting involved in popular charismatic mass movements.
        Here is an interesting link that may help you understand my scepticism.
        http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos114.htm

        • Andreas Abel

          Thanks for sharing this link, Lucy, which contains a lot of food for thought. I’d say that going into alternate states such as alpha is the point of many spiritual techniques, precisely to bypass the critical mind and harness the by magnitudes greater perceptive power of the subconscious. And/or access the spiritual realm?! (Genuine) speaking in tongues and charismatic chanting maybe or may involve a kind of self-hypnosis, that opens the mind for “words of knowledge” which may be uncensored insights of the subconscious. Or messages from the spiritual realm?! The purpose of these techniques(?) is spiritual healing, not manipulation, but we have to be aware of the black sheep that exploit the openness/suggestibility. The Bible warns of bad shepherds and calls for a “discernment of spirits”. Also, Jesus demanded that spiritual gifts and services are given free of charge. Preachers and churches that accumulate wealth may not be followers of Jesus Christ, who preached and practised poverty.

  • Chrispy

    I would also like to pose a story here of how I find differences between the choice to speak in tongues, and the overcoming of the Spirit into speaking in tongues.

    When I was a young junior high kid, I remember attending a youth conference downtown. The message was powerful, but the speaker did a puzzling thing. The speaker started going amongst the crowd and laying his hands on people and shouting some sort of prayers I couldn’t understand due to the scene being so puzzling. The speaker than does the unthinkable: he goes right to me, places his hand on my head, and shouts some prayer and I drop like a rock. I was not pushed, I didn’t even WANT to go down, but here’s where the strange thing happened. I was amongst a crowd, but I literally blanked out. When I came to my senses, I was lying on my back and 15 minutes had passed. I realized I had been weeping and I had been saying things. My mouth was moving, but I had no idea what was going on. When I became… self conscious again (best way to put it) I stopped “speaking”. It was all the result of whatever weird spiritual thing that happened to me.

    Nowadays, as a pastor myself, I can speak this “jibberish”. It’s something that I have to do, but often times it happens at the peak of being overcome by emotion or prayer.

    If you find skepticism to be the better of choices than that’s fine. Stick to what you believe to be wisest, but I just can’t reconcile this experience even amongst all my doubting. I was just fine before that night the dude put his hands on our foreheads. I didn’t even want to go down. Later in life amongst my doubts, I also concluded that the same intensity of skepticism towards God, when moved towards my certainty of my senses accurately portraying reality, or applying that same skepticism towards even man’s reasoning, I was in ruins. I was demanding more proof for God than I was out of anything else in my life. Should I use those same standards for skepticism towards the tools that allow me to reason, I disprove the very tools that give me the ability to prove or disprove!

    All I could provide was my personal experience in the most honest way I could. I doubt it will sway any minds, as I know it wouldn’t have swayed me in my strongest points of skepticism, but at least maybe you could understand where some believers are coming from with this.

    • akismet-be4ce0aa3fb26016edea1f039b7a862d

      I posted my last comment to the wrong thread above.
      ————-
      I previously posted my experience. I agree with your comments. What is interesting is that everyone who has experienced this is not trying to sway anyone to believe that they are correct. It is a personal expierence that deepens that worship experience. Others who don’t experience it may have another avenue to deepen their relationship. The wonderful feeling that I get makes me feel the upmost joy for the Highest, and that is what I need to continue to serve.

      http://www.skeptical-science.com/religion/speaking-in-tongues-the-real-story/#comment-8496

    • mario

      Hi Chrispy

      We must remember that FEELINGS, EMOTIONS AND EXPERIENCES are not the things we should trust, use or believe as these can change within seconds or after a while. Therefore as the Word of God says all in 2 Timothy 3:16….profitable for reproof, correction….. we see that scripture is always constant.

      So if the word says that tongues have ceased and people are still finding the experience, one question to ask, Is it from God or Satan. Back to the word, if all false religions are also speaking in tongues, casting out demons, healing are the elect being deceived as well? Is it from God?

      Maio

  • Chrispy

    The importance of language is to communicate.

    Is it not possible that if there really is a God, and if there really is a Spirit, that this God could have made it so that man’s Spirit’s communication to God REPLICATE natural speech? Supposing God were real of course, God doesn’t need this “Jibberish” to make natural sense, as long as the person doing it is doing it in communication to God and God the speaks to the Spirit.

    I just don’t find the argument “It doesn’t come out to be more than jibberish” to be a valid disproof. I’d think someone who wants to make that kind of statement needs to first prove God needs this spiritual communication to need to make sense naturally.

    (I find the conflict rises from trying to apply the rules of the natural to the supernatural. If there really is a supernatural, you cannot apply the rules of the natural to it. If it coincided with molecules, and energy, ect, it would simply be a statement of the natural. Yet an argument between the possibility of the supernatural is needed before any further discussion here is useful)

    • Chrispy

      Last thing and I’ll shut up. I want to also point towards the purpose of tongues making sense to those around them. If there are others present where you are speaking in tongues, like the disciples, it makes sense that God may have it be an exact language to influence those around them. If not and its sole purpose is between you and God, why should it matter if your “tongues” make sense?

      If I were you I would think this answer sounds dodgy, but really I don’t find why tongues HAVE to always be speaking in a different language Biblically

  • Tony Jackson

    People often laugh at, fear, and criticize that which they do not understand. To call it “meaningless babbling” is practically an ignorant statement (especially coming from one who hasnt experienced it). The language centers of the brain are ALSO inactive while speaking in tongues. And to clear up the disbelief, these centers are still ACTIVE when rambling that is not speaking in togues takes place. Which means these two concepts are different entirely. But , of course , i’m only 18 and the youth knows nothing about anything (sarcasm)…but if one is SEEKING TRUTH, view BOTH sides of the equation. Dont just come to a site TITLED “Skeptical Science”.

    • Andreas Abel

      “The language centers of the brain are ALSO inactive while speaking in tongues.” This is a scientific statement, can you give a pointer to the original research?
      If the language centers are not involved, then speaking in tongues is not “speaking in unknown languages” but it is a flow of syllables from deeper layers, spontaneous, free expression.

  • andy

    Hello…I actually got to this page BC I didn’t know what a “foursquare church” was. Anyhoo..I used to be steeped in the Baptist church…lots of fire and brimstone, every damn thing under the sun was a sin, youth group, camp, ad nauseum… And I believed every word…but I noticed something about my faith…I didn’t really seem to have any…every Sunday and Wednesday I would re-ask to be saved even though we were taught that you can’t become “un-saved” I was never sure if I actually meant it in my “heart of hearts” then I went to a friends church and watched people flopping around and speaking in tongues. I had no idea what was happening. I started doing it too BC I wanted to blend in and I was literally making the same sounds as the girl next to me and the pastor was thrilled I had been touched by god …that’s kinda when the honeymoon ended…if this was the language of the angels bestowed by god his own self then why was I ablehurt?, I guess thwart or make an imposter of myself in his presence. I started actually doing research for myself instead of just relying on the pastors interpretation of passages. I looked for discrepancies and found them everywhere. I panicked BC my family are all uber christian, but I never truly looked at the hypocrisy of my friends and family. TT ey were judgmental…and shallow and hateful…where was the love that Jesus preached? Also I immediately dropped the idea of original sin…if God is all loving, then the sin should at least wait until you are conscious of your actions…if god was all loving why did he flood the earth, or allow the Hebrews to be enslaved, if god has infinite patience, wisdom, and love why was there so much death associated with Christianity. Now I am not stupid I know that a lot of atrocious acts are carried out by imperfect us, but if he is all powerful and all knowing and everywhere at all times why does he allow us to hurt. Free will is a cop out argument I thought, BC what parent would willingly let their child hurt? I stopped believing in hell because no god would create such a place loving or not. I guess now I’m an agnostic at worst and a poly theist at best…after all even the bible acknowledges that there ARE other gods, he just wants to be king of the mountain…which is something I noticed several other religions wanted as well…who can say who is right? Only the dead and they aren’t blabbing it about. I’m glad I found your page, even if I am 2 years late to the convo…

    • King David

      You have been seriously deluded by your family of imposter-Christians.
      1) Did they tell you God was all-loving? His key attribute is holiness.
      2) God does not exist for the sole purpose of catering to your whims.
      3) Every “discrepancy that I am aware of has been addressed and shown to be bogus.
      4) Jesus can say who is right because he DID come back from the dead to tell about it.

  • Jeff Fressco

    Why not let each other believe what they believe in. If it makes your life better and your surroundings then there is no harm in it. There is no good and bad in a perfect world.

  • LaTron Brown

    I was a skeptic until it happened to me.

    Being an introverted person, I don’t typically respond with “amen” and “preach, preacher” encouragement that many people yell out during service, so I could never fathom speaking in tongues. But what happened to me was, I was praying in during service when I started to feel this sensation of warmth and tingling in my body almost like pulsating. My stomach began to quiver (almost like a vibration) and contract a bit…I was wondering “what in the world is going on” but I loved this feeling and wanted more of it, so I kept praying. I started subtlely swaying back and forth (I’m still trying to be inconspicuous and no let anyone see this) and this utterance seemed to just come up out of nowhere –that I tried to keep silently contained by putting my hand over my mouth. The feeling still pulsating throughout my body. Then I let go. The sounds that came out of my mouth were flowing like it was another language. (I’ve tried to make up ‘language’ before and this is nothing like it.) I tried to stop but it just kept coming. I was conscious of the experience, yet I was in this state of bliss- total bliss like I had never seen or experienced before. Now whether that was a gift of the spirit or my own neurchemicals re-routing or decreasing in certain areas of my brain and body, what I do know is this: It was the most amazing and exhilarating experience that I have ever known. If you have never experienced it, I’m sorry that you don’t truly understand what it is like. I dont practice it everytime I pray, only when I truly feel that sensation in my body. For those Christians that say , ‘I stopped because I dont believe its real anymore’, and try to persuade others to believe the same. I believe that it’s just no longer new to you. I urge you to look in your Bible a Roman 14:1-23. verse 2-4 pretty much sums it up: “One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another?

    And before I get response about ‘eating anything’ and ‘eating vegatables’ you can subsitute with “speaking in tongues”.

    • Andreas Abel

      Like you comment very much! You write: “whether that was a gift of the spirit or my own neurchemicals re-routing or decreasing in certain areas of my brain and body”. I’d say: Both at the same time. All spiritual necessarily has a material manifestation if it affects us or is for us to take notice of it.

      The following statement does not refer to your story but is more general: It does not make sense to say that speaking in tongues is “just” a neuro-chemical effect. That is just the reductionist fallacy. No one would say a picture of Rembrandt is just light of different frequencies. All the interesting semantic layers are lost by such pointless reductionism which is nonetheless prevalent in discussions about brain and mind…

  • Lucy

    Whenever I read the comments made by christians, I fall back on myself and try very hard to figure out the persistent why’s of their very strong superstition, they may as well be speaking in incomprehensible tongues as far as I’m concerned.
    These crazed ventriloquists for the god of the bible, seem painfully incapable of critical thinking or even reflecting on the harmful nature of their claims. Just from the above thread:
    “If God would reveal the hidden potential of His entire creation, mankind would commit suicide.” and “Science in interpretive and the evidence is tainted by the human experience.. God does not reveal himself or His Kingdom to imposters..”
    Hard to believe that progress has not made the slightest indent on so many deluded true believers who fervently continue to believe in hell, demons, and a tyrannical and basically impotent psychopathic god who created beings that it despises and ruthlessly kills in the most evil uncaring manner. (Except the special zombie christians of course, who win the free pass and get to go to psychopath’s heaven)
    I hate to break it to you all, but quoting meaningless scripture is not going to get you guys off the hook, you are not and will never be saved from the fate of all living creatures. Better get a life while you still can, stop dividing the world into them and us and do something more constructive in making the earth a better home for all its inhabitants. Whether you like or not, your unbelievable supernatural claims have been refuted and superseded by Science, get used to it. And no, science does not claim to have all the answers, but it has painstakingly developed and continues to develop a far more reliable method of investigating the nature of reality that is infinitely superior to a hundred million different garbled interpretations of a collection of ancient bits of Stone Age writings.

  • Nathan

    Faith in God is your missing ingredient…Science is a futile notion in attempting to explain something of higher order or purpose.
    Romans 8:7 The carnal mind is enmity with God..
    Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    Mr. Gamble.. Faith begins where science ends.
    Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him..
    Science in interpretive and the evidence is tainted by the human experience.. God does not reveal himself or His Kingdom to imposters..
    John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship him in spirit and truth.
    If God simply spoke the entire universe into existence, why base your own existence on another man’s observation or your own broken experience?
    If God would reveal the hidden potential of His entire creation, mankind would commit suicide.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    • Papa Dougal

      I can copy and paste a hundred scientific documents that disagree with everything you copied…key word COPIED….like they have done for ages. Copying and repeating something by a million others doesnt m ake it true…you do know that dont you? …mmm I thought not…try..just try…going a little wee bit deeper than copy and paste…look at refernces outside the bible that support your claim….oh…sorry…there are none.

      • Tagi

        Hi Dougal, if we assume for a moment that the collective testament is truthful to the described experience, can you, or the scientific method give an evidence based counter explanation for the hundreds of thousands who argue the cause of speaking in tongues as a supernatural experience? Is testimony not a legitimate source of evidence, and made even more plausible when independently collected? I would dismiss it more willingly if the testimony was constructed by a single organisation and hierarchy, but this simply isn’t the case. Individuals, unrelated to religious sect or institution have witnessed to the same experience over the past 2000 years. If you agreed, (which I assume you don’t) then surely the scientific community would be more fascinated to explain such a phenomenon and not just mock those who claim it be spiritual?

      • Chris

        Confusion- You believe Australia (insert any country you have never visited) is there, yet you’ve never been there. You believe the pictures you’ve seen and the stories you’ve heard. That makes you a “copier” in your terms…

        If you want to discuss the realm of the “verifiable”, I’m afraid you cannot believe in anything written about history…

        Everybody uses standards to attack what they disagree with while not applying those same standards to their own beliefs or lives… this is just a common aspect of “cognitive dissonance”

        And I’m troubled by you claiming about things written outside of the Bible not supporting the Bible… you do realize that the Old Testament writings about cultural rules and cleanliness are constantly being proven to be healthy lifestyle choices far before they could have studied or proven it to be true.

        Many old testament prophecies, found in books dated/proven to have emerged before the prophecies took place, have come true such as the city of Tyre, the reunion of Israel, and the vast number of things the book of Isiah writes about Christ (Whom Josephus, who was not a Christian, verified as a Historian of Rome the credibility of the existence and “miracles” of Christ.

        What’s funny is that you are probably discussing the historical aspect of the Bible. Who can prove history? Your bias decides what you give credibility over (that’s not very scientific…)

        Final comment- I am following your posts around and commenting. You came here looking for a fight with your venomous childlike comments and you do not simply just get to “hit and run”.

        • Christopher McGinnis

          This “scientific” logic is terribly flawed. While we both agree to believe Australia is there without ever visiting it ourselves, we also have the option of verifying this fact upon our own experimentation or by various evidence of proofs that don’t rely on personal testimony, meaning that at any point I can go and visit Australia or look at data that would verify it’s existence. The same cannot be said about God unfortunately. Ultimately, it seems to me that you’re applying an Existential perspective to your religious belief which in in its very nature is contradictory to belief in general.

  • Andreas

    Being both scientist and Christian with exposure to and practice of “speaking in tongues”, I do not see the contradiction between the scientific and the religious explanation. True glossolalia goes with a heightened mental state (according to Dr. Felicitas Goodman), and feeling the connection to God is certainly a high mental state (beyond every-day, “normal” operation of the brain). Fake glossolalia lacks the heightened state. I can always do fake glossolalia; since I experienced glossolalia for the first time, I can voluntarily produce the “babble”. But this is certainly pointless: it like doing swimming movements without being in the water.
    Since we are living in a world of matter and are made of matter, everything spiritual has necessarily a material incarnation. There is no reason to believe something genuine spiritual is not happening only because something measurable, analyzable goes on in the brain.

  • Lucy

    Incessant bible/Koran reading and repetitive religious indoctrination leads to severe emotional instability and mental illness. Tongue babbling, belief in demons and hell and other unwholesome superstitious nonsense just means you’re barking mad and you should be locked up in a nicely padded cell for the safety of all sane people.

    • Dan Johnson

      Indeed one day this may happen. It will be after a new age of enlightenment when superstitious belief systems are no longer widely accepted. Anyone witnessed to speak in tongues will be seen as having a mental illness.

  • Bob

    I have heard about ‘speaking in tongue’ for years but have never seen or heard anyone do it. I have not concioulsy done it. However, for many years right through until today I often wake myself up becasue I am talking. It is not a language I know and I do not speak any other language. What I hear is never realted to a dream. It is like I’m on a beach with my eyes closed and I hear what is going on but there is no thought. Over the years I have heard and members of my family have heard three seperate voices. A normal tone speaking voice, a gutteral voice and a voice tha is soft almost like a wisper. It is not english, it is not anyting I know. It is articualte, it has a cadance like a language. It starts and stops. My family says it is like hearing one side of a conversation. To me this has nothing to do with God or religion but I sure would like to understand it. I have finally gotten some recording of it and after I get get the tape enhanced I hope to take it to a linguist at one of the universities to see what (if anything) they can tell me. I just ope someone would take a serious approach toward it. If it is jibberious–fine–tell me that. If it isn’t then what is it?

    • Michael Healy

      What you describe, Bob, does sound similar to my experience in some ways, especially when you say, “It is articulate, it has a cadence like a language.” It may or may not have anything to do with God. I have heard that the devil can also cause this phenomenon to occur.

      • Chris

        Confusion- You posing a “natural problem” to an event someone claims to be supernatural.

        Example-
        “My dad supernaturally flew”!-

        Your response- “People cannot naturally fly”

        My thoughts- He didn’t say it was natural… why bring that aspect up. You’d be better off arguing that the supernatural can’t happen, than to give useless responses like that…

  • Income

    I have a very close friend that lived in Mexico for a while and attended a church there. Nobody at the church could speak English except my friend and one other woman but even they didn’t speak well. At one service a girl began to speak in tongues and my friend heard her and new that she couldn’t understand English let alone speak it however when she began to speak in tongues it was in English and my friend was able to understand parts of what she was saying. How does hard solid scientific proof explain something like that?

    • Liam

      It’s easy to explain: your friend made up a fanciful story or added some flowery details to a more mundane event, and knew you would buy it because it had something to do with God. You take the concept (and identity) of God as automatically true and choose to judge your friend’s story through the lens of that assumption, allowing yourself to believe anything so long as it reinforces your own preconceptions and ignoring the many other more plausible explanations for a story with dubious factual basis. You also distrust science whenever it conflicts with your beliefs, and likely accuse those who trust in it to also be working in a purely faithful framework (comparing their acceptance of science as equivalent to your acceptance of faith), while forgetting that it is trust in sound logic, not blind faith in supernatural fictions or hearsay, that allows a generally rational person to reach logically consistent and reasonable conclusions based in evidence. Anticipating a hostile response especially to these last comments, I’d like to clarify that I am not saying that all faith in God or a similar theological figure is inherently wrong or incompatible with logic; merely that while faith may serve a valuable purpose in attempting to address questions that have not yet been answered, it becomes problematic and irrational when those questions have been answered, yet one still allows faith to determine one’s belief in place of logic and scientific explanation.

      • Chrispy

        But yet you are guilty of the same things you accuse your opponent of. Perhaps you see the world through a naturalistic (there is no super nature) lens and so you believe something beyond what you could know (this is a silly story)

        And if you can dismiss a story based upon a worldview opinion, we can dismiss your opinion due to our worldview as well -_-

  • Dan

    When I spoke in tongues for the first time, I was not even seeking it. I was being prayed for in a quiet ( very non-hyped ) situation 1 on 1 where if anything I was feeling underwhelmed and non inspired. I was however adamantly seeking God’s purpose in my life. At first I actually thought someone else had joined us praying in another language, then surprised and being aware that these words were coming from my own mouth I embraced them and spoke it out with gusto. This caused an overwhelming experience of joy. Since that time I have seen many what I would call “fake” this experience to fit in as you describe. Other versions bordered on hysteria or being hyped up, but for myself it was totally unprompted so I am comfortable to accept it for as it was, a genuine encounter of God. Since that time I have not been able to replicate that exact experience… That first encounter was defining and instant, it completely changed me. An indescribable experience that I cannot replicate or manifest in any other way. I can and continue to speak those words (or at least I think they are similar) as prompted in prayer but it is not the same.

    I am rationale thinker. I have explored all the possibilities of a chemical trick in my brain to name a few – these are indeed possible realities. So that’s where faith comes into it and I choose to believe and find plausable evidence in the testimony of many others who have also encountered God in this way.

    • Dave Gamble Post author

      I do truly understand where you are coming from Dan … having once been in the mix, I’ve also been there and have indeed experienced something very similar to what you are describing.

      Today, I no longer believe and appreciate that what I had done was to simply fool myself. Beliefs are like that, they can and do play psychological tricks with the human mind. I also understand why you have opted for faith, it is the natural outcome when you are emotionally invested in a specific belief … when all about you tell you it is true, when you would loose friends if you did not, when you have a book that tells you it is true, when you have given a lot of time to it, then just accepting it is quite understandable.

      When I spoke in tongues, I was quite sure it was real … now that I am no longer a believer and have a better understanding of the psychology, I understand that I had simply fooled myself.

      I’m now an atheist … and yet, I can still speak in tongues, but nothing supernatural is going on.

      • Dan

        Hi Dave – Fair enough, I can see how you’ve rationalised away faith in context but if your experience is indeed similar to mine I find it interesting that you’ve put it down to a physiological trick. Were you led to speak in tongues by another? Were you involved in a group that practiced this?

        The first instance (or event) I’m describing I cannot describe “as fooling myself” or a trick with the evidence presented to me. I would be more sympathetic to that possibility if the following were not true… 1) I wasn’t seeking the experience, 2) I never attempted it before, 3) it came out of nowhere… it was like a light switch went on, no build up, nothing. I have since seen many Pentecostals work themselves up, they encourage others to start babbling as to get it started. There is a lot of peer pressure in those situations. However, for me I was speaking in tongues before I even knew it or recognized it. I have met many with similar testimony with one thing in common, they are seeking God for who he is, not what he can do for them.

        The emotional response (and while emotional has a stigma, it was is a natural and valid reaction of this manifestation) was indescribable and I’ve never felt that level of intense overwhelming love/joy/excitement ever since. I simply describe the speaking of tongues as the reaction of not knowing what to say in thankfulness to the experience or glimpse of Gods presence.

        (All respect to you and how you approach Christians in non-threatening or argumentative ways.)

      • Laura

        I agree with you 100%, Dave. As a preacher’s daughter raised in the Pentecostal church, I have extensive experience in this subject. Once I researched, considered, and discussed at length why we did the things we did, I left the church and now consider myself an atheist. I believe tongues are a product of euphoria brought on by higher-than-normal dopamine levels. The feeling one experiences in a loud, more demonstrative church is very similar to being in the middle of a large, excited group in a demonstration or a concert. Now that I understand the science behind it, it’s no longer some mystic occurrence and I don’t question my choices by someone who claims to have “experienced the power of God” because I know exactly what they’re talking about. ;-)

  • Dave Gamble Post author

    Interesting comment Michael … however, I would still argue that it is not evidence for anything supernatural.

    Having been personally inside a Pentecostal church for several decades, I am well aware of what goes on. Having also personally practised speaking-in-tongues myself, I am also aware of how easy it is to fool yourself.

    What you are experiencing is what happens as you ride the crest of an emotional wave. The religious experience is indeed eaisly replicated by simulating the appropriate parts of the human brain.

  • Michael Healy

    I do not deny that some, perhaps many, of those who say they speak in tongues may be faking it to fit in to a group that practices speaking in tongues. However, my own experience has been radically different.

    In my case, I tried very hard to fight against the urge to speak in tongues, exerting every scrap of willpower I could find to try to prevent myself from doing it, but still did it despite my best efforts to the contrary.

    This may not make sense to you, but that was my experience, and your theory does not seem to explain it.

    • Denise

      In my experience, I can choose to speak in tongues, but there are also times when I am in prayer and it just comes over me and flowing out of me and in those times it is so powerful and I know it is real because I feel something in my spirit and begin to weep because of the intimacy felt between me and God. It is also good to focus on God when you are speaking in tongues. If I am thinking of other things and not focused on God, I don’t feel the intimacy or heat all around me. Sometimes I also have tingling or goosebumps.

  • Dave Gamble Post author

    Hi jcw … yep, I can still do it … and nope, it does not have the same emotional impact, but I could indeed attend a Pentecostal meeting and blend right in if I choose to be dishonest and pretend I was one of them.

    If writing a paper on this, then you should check out the following …
    – Samarin, William J. (1972). Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism. New York: Macmillan
    – Spanos, Nicholas P.; Cross, Wendy P.; Lepage, Mark; Coristine, Marjorie (February 1986). “Glossolalia as learned behavior: An experimental demonstration”. Journal of Abnormal Psychology 95
    – Goodman, Felicitas D. (1972). Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    And also, as you have already discovered, google is your friend.

    Oh and this Wikipedia article may also be of interest, but do not cite it as a source, doing so will get you no marks. Instead use it to mine credible references that you can then go and research.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

  • jcw

    I’d like to know if you can still “speak in tongues” now and if it sounds and feels the same as it did when you were a believer/practitioner. Thanks, I’m writing a paper on this for my linguistics class.

  • Dave Gamble Post author

    Ah … I see “dickson addo” is playing the “No true Scotsman…” fallacy.

    Claim he presents …
    – “True” christians will always remain “true” christians

    Evidence presented to verify this claim …
    – Zero.

  • dickson addo

    if you truly want to find the truth then die and see for it is impossible for a believer who has tasted CHRIST JESUS and the power of his name to backslide and come back to CHRIST.GOD haVE mercy on you and have a change of mind.

  • justme

    MORE!!!! I’ve also heard these words before, some seem same but others seem different, where there are more words and more of them are different. Some people will speak the same 10 words in different sequences. I’m wondering if these words sound the same in other languages.

  • Dave Gamble Post author

    James asks …

    // Why would Jesus or any other person go through such torture just to prove he is Son of God? If he’s just a lunatic or extremist //
    Outside of the 4 gospels, there is no evidence that he chose to do this to prove that he is the son of god. It should also be noted that people often do choose to die for a belief, even a false one, for example 9/11

    // Can science really explain demonic possessions? //
    Yes indeed it can. Brain Chemistry is very complex, and any flaws can indeed cause this to happen.

    Finally, regarding the speaking in tongues … a story repeated after a 20 year gap. I’ve personally seen folks repeat the details for an incident I actually saw and noted how details had changed and evolved to make it a better story. Our memories can be fooled, we can fool ourselves … if somebody tells us a story, and it is a good story, we tend to repeat it and also adapt it. Find the Indian lady in question and if she does indeed confirm the details, then you have something interesting, but as with all such stories … it was long ago and she will not be available or known, so I remain skeptical.

  • James H

    Hi, I’m writing from Asia. I’ve been a faithful Christian for several years but am recently feeling a lost of faith. While David Coming’s book seems really convincing that the concept of God could be ‘man made’, there are some questions that still make me hopeful that there’s a God.

    For example: #1-Why would Jesus or any other person go through such torture just to prove he is Son of God? If he’s just a lunatic or extremist, wouldn’t his teachings and wisdom throughout the NT be a contradiction to this suicidal  and seemingly pointless act on the cross? With his charisma and wisdom, he could easily raise a rebellion and gain lots of money and power. If he’s a fraud, why would he want to kill himself? 

     #2 – Can science really explain demonic possessions? My church had the experience of witnessing a young girl who transformed from a totally decent kid into a foul mouth ‘demonic’ and violent person. The transformation was so drastic and scary that the folks who witnessed this still shudders to recall this incident. An exorcism was performed and the girl became normal again.

    #3 – This is about speaking in Tongues. An elder in my church related an incident that happened more than 20 years ago when he was still a youth. He and 3 other Chinese boys were in the sanctuary when they noticed an Indian lady sobbing and praying in distress. Moved by her sadness, they approached her to ask if they can pray for her problems. She replied that it was too complicated and did not reveal any details but she let them pray anyway. Minutes into the prayers, one of the boys started to speak in tongues. He had no prior experience in tongues and his friends were shocked. What was even more shocking was that the Indian lady could understand every word that he prayed. She recognised it as a rare indian dialect that she hasn’t heard in a long while and his prayers were edifying to her. The bible taught that real Tongue speaking serves to edify those in distress. Also, only people who has the gift of interpretaion can understand the speaker. 

    Sorry for the long letter.  I appreciate your thoughts in this. Thank you. 

    • Denise

      I am a believer. The enemy tries to come at me with doubt too, but I know that doubt opens a doorway for the demonic. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” Proverbs 14:12
      Remember that satan is a liar, the father of lies. If it goes against the Word of God, it is a lie. God requires faith from us, not doubt. Even when our world seems to crumble we must remember, we walk by faith and not by sight! “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17

      The enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy. He is a brilliant fallen angel who can appear as an angel of light. He can offer you a bite from the tree of “the knowledge of good and evil” but it is corrupt. God’s word is the only truth! Search the scriptures and meditate on God’s word. Do not allow the enemy to corrupt your thinking. Jesus is real, He loves you and has a plan for you! Never give up. Do not be deceived. satan hates mankind and wants to drag as many of us as the pit as he can.
      “Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.” 1 Timothy 4:1
      “Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” James 4:7
      “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

      I have heard many great testimonies about people speaking in tongues! Some of it is real and some of it is fake. Some people just do it to try and fit in and others truly have the gift. I used to think it was silly and made up and now I have the gift because God put the desire in me and then I started moving my mouth in faith. Amen!

      Please watch these video on supernatural languages. They will blow you away! Be blessed brother in Christ. Amen! All praise to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

      http://youtu.be/BOPVeZcZvc8
      http://youtu.be/SgmapN8Dz9M

      • mario

        Sid Roth mentioned tongues in Acts 2. Yes what was the reason ? The law Moses old covenant brought down the 10 commandments what happened? 3000 died. The Holy Spirit comes New covenant 3000 saved!!!! The sign gifts were for a specific time for specific purpose. What was the reason for the sign gifts? The Jews needed a sign and the Greeks needed knowledge???

        Sid says that Paul could heal anyone, also by hankie chiefs and so on. But 1 Corinthians says that tongues, prophesy and knowledge would cease. Well was it not ceasing ALREADY later in Pauls ministry??? We see that he could not heal his co-worker Epaphroditus,Phil 2: 25-27 … and Timothy (1 timothy 5:23) …..and Paul had to leave Trophimus behind as he had got sick 2 Timothy 4:20.

        Is this not enough proof that the sign gifts were ceasing????

    • Susan adams

      I feel very sad for you because you have been drawn into a false religion. No one today has gifts it ended with the disciples. If you study your bible properly and cross reference the scriptures and pray sincerely for help Jehovah God will give you insight. If you hear voices or feel yourself being touched then something is wrong….only satan does that.
      I pray for God to help you.

    • jh

      1. Does Jesus exist? Also, God is all powerful and good. Why would he have a place such as hell? People may not like me, but I’ve never wished them to be hurt or injured just because they didn’t want to be my friends. Why is the christian god so … pathetic? Also, why wouldn’t he have planned something a little less mediocre than a few hours of torture. There are human beings who have suffered far worse than Jesus ever did. There are innocent people who have starved to death, been raped, been flogged, had their nails pulled out, had their skin flayed off….. These people have begged for death and they survived for more than a few hours. As was carved in a holocaust well, one jewish person wrote this .. paraphrased from memory… I won’t ask for forgiveness from God. God will have to ask forgiveness from me. (There were people who thought that killing the Jewish people was immoral. They risked their lives, their human lives, and their freedom to help. Yet, God, who created heaven and earth, couldn’t bother. Don’t play the free will card. I would hope that if you saw a man raping a 5 year old girl, you would do everything in your power to stop that man and his free will of raping a girl. Why can’t we hold your god to minimum moral standards?)

      2. demonic possession? How do you know that it isn’t some sort of psychological trauma? It’s interesting that the victim of demonic possession is often a young girl. Young girls tend to be raised as highly empathetic and sensitive. (How often do you condition your boys to behave well rather than going with the old “boys will be boys”? How often do you use social and conditional pressure to create a “perfect princess? If that’s not grounds for mental torture, I don’t know what is. Imagine what it would be like to be constantly molded and forced to act against your own wishes and desires. To have to be a perfect little princess. Don’t slip, not even once…. What a mind fuck!)

      They also tend to be a class of people that are often abused, especially sexually. I think it more likely that the girl underwent a brutal mind fuck by your church and decided to suppress true memories of sexual abuse, probably by someone in the church. (You’d be surprised how much sexual abuse occurs in churches. Most of the time, people hide the information. Pedophilia, bestiality, rape – these are all common in churches unfortunately. Don’t believe me. Just look up all the times there has been sex abuse. Generally, it is the pastor who has raped or sexually abused the children. They get away with it because … I don’t know why.)

      3. How do you know that the elder in your church isn’t lying? Not only that – China and india are neighbors. The human mind is an extraordinary organ. We have instances of people with brain injuries who come out of it speaking with a French accent. Please note, the person with the french accent was a British speaker and had never spoken french before. This isn’t just one case but we have several just like it. Perhaps this boy subconsciously recognized the dialect by being primed by the indian woman? Then, in a state of psychological “PCP”, he started babbling in a language that he had already been exposed to?

      Babbling in tongues – if a god existed, and that god was good, he would have made it a far more permanent skill. Think how effective it would be if you wanted to be a missionary and instead of spending weeks, months, years learning a language, you magically learned that language. Think how many people you could convert.

      • Chrispy

        I assume you posted in order to get the opposing sides take on your objections l. I’ll attempt to answer the objections I find to hold an attack against the faith as a whole, rather than just the simple speaking in tongues.

        Your entire complaints revolve around the goodness of God. Why would an all loving Being allow horror and trauma to exist in His universe, and why would he not just step in every time to prevent atrocities?

        I’m obviously not God, but I can give rational reasons to these objections that are probably true of God.

        The world you would desire would be a world less educated or free than the one that we live in. You have said you do not like the “free will” argument, and I assume you don’t like it because to you it deflects responsibility from God to man, and according to your thoughts on God’s goodness, it’s apparent any type of “deflection” is absurd because it’s not man’s fault.

        Yet to only look at the horrendous misuse of free will, you fail to see the benefit of it. We cannot truly do anything independently good unless we know the difference between good and evil and have equal opportunity to do both. If we could only do good, evil would not exist, and therefore goodness could not be understood or appreciated unless we held a hatred for its opposite. (We only know things to exist because we can compare it to other different existences ie: we know light exists because we can contrast it towards its lack of existence/darkness)

        So if the type of universe that allows evil to exist becomes a necessity for good to exist, than we have a set stage that can’t be touched. The natural must go on as the norm. IF you and I were playing a chess game, I could let you brake a rule or two to keep the game going, but if I let you brake a rule every turn you or I did something we didn’t like, there would be no chess game. To allow you to do good, you must be allowed to do evil, or your actions are no longer good or evil.

        And so you might argue is the pain of evil worth the joy of good? Considering the fact that love and hate come from good/evil, I could only imagine a universe without good/evil to be empty robotics- all inner joys for us as a creature become an impossibility.

        If God is omnipotent why couldn’t he just skip this step, and make us all fully able to choose yet never desiring to choose evil? Well there is an additional aspect- we are made to love what is good. The Christian faith gets man to examine the evil he has done, and to further understand the goodness of God because we have not been very good creatures (which in the end starts to shape us into good creatures) in all of our best intentions, we have still acted selfishly, reacting out of pain, the entire way. We know what’s right and love to profit ourselves rather than do right quite often. If there is no greater joy in this universe than to love God, and the only way this can come about is for Him to show His goodness in a world where evil exists(strongly), than the most loving thing to do is to do what it takes for the most possible joy for His creatures whom He loves.

        As far as hell is concerned, I’d recommend looking into some of the Greek meanings for hell, as I’ve taken the descriptions given to be mostly metaphorical (a place that holds every biblical description couldn’t physically exist, so if the words are meant to be descriptive, than metaphor is fair game). I’d also encourage you to read “The Great Divorce” by C.S. Lewis, where he speculated that the gates of hell are closed from the inside to keep God out.

        This was a long read but unfortunately such short questions can have such long answers. Hope this helps alleviate (yet I strongly doubt solves) some of your objections.

  • Dave Gamble Post author

    Anon, the New Testament example is clear, on the day of Pentecost all who spoke in tongues where understood. In this case, the modern form … “simply making up words”, is by your own definition meaningless babbling. The hard scientific fact here is that is all that is going on. Tacking on words such as “spiritual” does nothing except confirm that it is a delusion, it does not describe anything measurable or real.

    The other challenge you face is that the bible also claims .. 1 Cor 14.22 that “tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” … well I don’t believe, so in exactly what way does meaningless babbling become a sign for me? Now if somebody started speaking a language they had never been exposed to, I’d be impressed, but there is no evidence that has ever happened.

      • Hugo Lindum

        I’ll get together $100,000 given to any charity he likes if this Sid Roth can have a proper conversation with any 3 languages of my choice. Or is he just a good old-fashioned liar?

      • mario

        Sid Roth mentioned tongues in Acts 2. Yes what was the reason ? The law Moses old covenant brought down the 10 commandments what happened? 3000 died. The Holy Spirit comes New covenant 3000 saved!!!! The sign gifts were for a specific time for specific purpose. What was the reason for the sign gifts? The Jews needed a sign and the Greeks needed knowledge???

        Sid says that Paul could heal anyone, also by hankie chiefs and so on. But 1 Corinthians says that tongues, prophesy and knowledge would cease. Well was it not ceasing ALREADY later in Pauls ministry??? We see that he could not heal his co-worker Epaphroditus,Phil 2: 25-27 … and Timothy (1 timothy 5:23) …..and Paul had to leave Trophimus behind as he had got sick 2 Timothy 4:20.

        Is this not enough proof that the sign gifts were ceasing????

        • Marchello

          This is a great discussion, so thanks to Dave for starting it. This is of course a ‘skeptics’ website so most of the critics of ‘the gift of tongues’ would also not believe in ANYTHING supernatural, neither God nor gift. So I thank you non-believers for at least hearing the Pentecostal case although you think it nonsense. Critics must admit the Bible records in a number of passages the phenomenon of ‘speaking in tongues’. So can we at least agree that this phenomenon occurred among the first Christians? From the book of Acts and the letter to the Corinthians we can surmise that is was also common in the early churches. The next point to establish from the Bible is that there were various ‘Spiritual Gifts’ and they were not confined to church leaders. Yes there has been confusion as to the use and purpose of the gifts (obvious from the Corinthian letter) which has carried throughout the gospel age. I will make further comment when I have time.

    • melissa

      You really should know…. i understand your concept but you don’t know what you are saying…without disrespect.
      When you receive the Holy Spirit a lot of things wil cross your mind for you to disbelieve, thats how the mind works. Science now however does prove speaking in tongues. you can make anything scientific by massaging data but you cannot deny that when starting to speak in tongues you’re tongue starts to tighten and starts moving corruptly and then blows into another language. what about the people who come to revival fellowships before seeing or hearing anyone speaking in tongues, is showed the scriptures that receiving is essential :John 3:3 and explained that you need to start saying ‘Hallelujah’. they then come back and state the exact feelings and coincidents to the rest.. disprove that with science then get back to me.

  • Anon

    You’ve completely missed the point. Those who speak in tongues usually don’t understand what they are saying, nor do any specific “words” have to mean one thing.

    Sure, I don’t understand it fully myself – But anyone can make up words and speak them – Just ask any child. But the fact is that it’s a spiritual connection, and the “words” used don’t relate to anything of any other language. Remember, it’s not something of this world.

    Lastly, you’re welcome to your opinions – But don’t claim something to be “hard solid scientific proof that it is not real” when you don’t see the full picture.

    • Carol

      Having received the gift of speaking in tongue had nothing to do with any conscious or subconscious thought from me at all such as fitting in etc. I had simply asked God to forgive me for rejecting Him out of my life due to anger. When I did this I experienced a sensation that could not be put into words so I won’t try.
      I had never attended a Pentecostal church in my life.

      The next Sunday I being Catholic attended Mass and was a bit troubled by the fact when I tried to say my prayers words came out I did not recognize and yet I felt very connected to God. it just did not make sense to me. Later on in the week. I had a dream about a church I had never attended or seen and when sharing my dream with a friend she said it looked like a Church in another town not too far away but in an area I had never traveled . I got directions from her and when I saw it it was the church in my dream and yes it was Pentecostal. I have attended there many years now and have come to understand my wonderful gift and the many others I have received.

      I’m not saying all this happened overnight it has taken me years of reading my Bible to just begin to understand our Divine Creator and honestly I believe He is and always will be beyond complete human understanding. The Bible states we will know
      all things when we stand before God. However I have found the Bible to be a personal means of communication to comfort and guide me in how to live my life . Why must people continually degrade the things they cannot prove or understand

      The problem I see with the person who wrote this article is he/she gave up before he made the real connection or maybe like he/she said he discovered he was doing it to fit in..and I’m not judging here but gifts of the Holy Spirit are not done they are given.. I’m not saying I’m special or sinless I’m not. I’m just forever grateful for all that I have received from my loving Father His Son and the Holy Spirit..

      • mario

        Tongues in Acts 2. Yes what was the reason ? The law Moses old covenant brought down the 10 commandments what happened? 3000 died. The Holy Spirit comes New covenant 3000 saved!!!! The sign gifts were for a specific time for specific purpose. What was the reason for the sign gifts? The Jews needed a sign and the Greeks needed knowledge???

        Paul could heal anyone, also by hankie chiefs and so on. But 1 Corinthians says that tongues, prophesy and knowledge would cease. Well was it not ceasing ALREADY later in Pauls ministry??? We see that he could not heal his co-worker Epaphroditus,Phil 2: 25-27 … and Timothy (1 timothy 5:23) …..and Paul had to leave Trophimus behind as he had got sick 2 Timothy 4:20.

        Is this not enough proof that the sign gifts were ceasing????

        QUESTION IF IT DID CEASE, WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY???? False counterfeit tongues? Evil Spirits? If you do not KNOW what you are doing then you could be cursing GOD?

        God allowed tongues and HE also reprimanded tongues. WHY ? What did they have to do if they spoke in tongues ????? 1 Corinthians 12 let there be two or three, must be interpreted, woman not allowed to speak in tongues ?

    • Susan adams

      I think you miss the point that this man is a specialist. ….also the disciples spoke only in known languages and not some unrecognisable muttering. If you people won’t except facts there really is no hope for you.

      • Joe Gasso

        If you have never experienced it your really in the Dark about commenting on it. if the Holy Spirit has come upon you with the Gift of Unknown tongues, then you know the power is real and not imagined. You feel the actual physical, yes, Physical I said, presence of the Holy Spirit. It is not imagined, It is very real. Those who have it have power descending on them just as Jesus said, “you shall recieve Power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you”. This Power moves Mountains, It is the all Powerful Living God Living inside of you! making his presence known to his children. Enabling them to do all things as his Power strenghthens them. Of course you think it is ridiculous because you have never experienced it, But for those of us who have, and Continue in it, The Power Is Real! Not a figment of our imaginations! Peace!

        • jh

          People who heard the apostles speak recognized the language. They could understand it. It would be like a Chinese person babbling in French or Russian and someone who is a native speaker of French or Russian could understand it. Or a monolingual English speaker speaking perfect Japanese. If you are babbling in tongues and it is unrecognizable, than it isn’t the same as what is recorded in the Bible.

          I’ve met people who have babbled in tongues and now, they’ve come to recognize that it was a delusion that their mind played on them. So next time someone claims to babble in tongues, record it and broadcast it. Someone, somewhere should recognize the words and be able to point out what it means. Preferably – a language that many people have a consensus is that language. What’s the point of babbling if you aren’t communicating something. If it’s not communicating something intelligible, it’s just bs that no different from a baby babbling and making noises. I find it odd that all those people haven’t yet babbled in a recognized language that a bystander would instantly recognize.

          Don’t underestimate the ability to self-deceive and to do extraordinary deeds. There are hindus who can walk on burning coals. I’ve yet to see a christian be able to do that. I’ve seen buddhist monks who can do amazing physical acts. I have yet to see a christian do that. Instead, we get the cheap target version of extraordinary – i.e. the incoherent babbling of tongues. (You do realize that the ancient Sibyls – ancient Greek and Roman oracles – used to babble in tongues as well. Christians are just one in a long line of people who babble in tongues.)

  • Anomynous

    Exactly, I perceive this ‘language of the angels’ as rather a stress relieving technique rather than an actual communication. The Frontal Lobe is shown to be inactive when performing tongues. That means that you are not thinking at all whatsoever. It’s easy to jib jab random sounds without using the noggin. It’s a bit complicated to recite real language, even when you have lived with it all your life. It takes thinking. I read some statistics by Evangelical Church websites that say that children who recite tongues are more emotionally stable. This is because every time they jib jab, they are releasing stress off their minds. There is a similar technique in which writers relieve writing stress by writing down whatever is at the top of their heads for five minutes and they end up with pretty ‘interesting’ results. I would rather not try to speak in Tongues because people would probably consider me retarded.

    • harry

      speaking in tongues builds you [ Jude 1:20]and its the only way god asking you and me to worship him, because he is a spirit and he is expecting from us ….
      1]question if he did not gave us? how can he expect out of us ?
      2] if you are not speaking in tongues you are not in the worship list of god?
      3]well Eph 1:3 declares he blessed us with ALL spiritual gifts in the heavenly places in jesus…..
      4]the gift of tongues is one of them in 9 spiritual gifts from god…..
      5]when i got baptized i remember what the holy bible says in acts 2:38…..
      brother don’t foolishly speak anything out of your mind …just obey the word of god and be blessed….

      • mario

        Hi do you take every thought captive? If tongues must interpreted in the church, would it be helping satan as he would now understand the secret heavenly language?
        Did Paul speak more earthly or heavenly languages?

      • mario

        Hi Is Jude 1:20 refer to speaking in tongues?
        Eph 1:3 Do we all have all the gifts?
        If the bible says NOT all speak in tongues, are you more blessed than me as you can build up yourself, you can worship God the way he wants it?