As proof that ‘God’ has poured out his spirit, there is a manifestation known as “Speaking in Tongues”. Those seeing it for the first time sometimes find it to be a bit creepy or bizarre, especially if they don’t know what is going on. It usually happens during times of open prayer within Pentecostal churches or other similar types of groups with a Charismatic leaning. Sometimes one individual will appear to loudly break out into a prayer or song in what sounds like a foreign language, but not any language ever heard before. There is also a variation in which the entire group will all do this together; except of course for those not in the know or not ‘gifted’ yet.
Normally when considering religion, concepts such as “spirit” are vague, immeasurable and meaningless, but here is something solid that we can actually measure and determine if there is anything significant happening. Over the years there has been a lot of serious independent scientific research of this specific practise. One very good example is the long and detailed study carried out back in the early 1970’s by the famous Professor of Linguistics, William J Samarin. From all around the world he gathered and recorded many samples of “Speaking in Tongues”. All this data was then put through an extensive analysis over a period of five years. His conclusions were as follows:
- While speaking in tongues does appear at first to resemble human language, that was only on the surface.
- The actual stream of speech was not organised and there was no existing relationship between units of speech and concepts.
- The speakers might believe it to be a real language, but it was totally meaningless
[Samarin, William J. (1972). Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism. New York: Macmillan]
Note that this is not just a blog opinion, its peer reviewed research carried out over many years by a highly qualified open-minded linguist. Speaking-in-tongues is nothing but empty babbling by devoted believers who have deluded themselves into thinking it to be a sign of the Holy Spirit. I should know; I used to be a practitioner myself at one time and truly did believe in the reality of it, but realise now that I was motivated by my desire to blend in and was only fooling myself.
If you dig a bit deeper and consider the history of it all, you find that the modern practise as we see it today is not all that old, it dates back to about 1906 in Los Angeles. Having first started in a revival there, it has since then spread in a viral like manner both geographically around the globe, and also chronologically on to each successive generation. Modern practitioners claim that what they are doing is exactly the same as the experience described within the Book of Acts (2:1-13), however one huge discrepancy is that the story within Book of Acts describes recognised languages from all around the Roman Empire being spoken. In stark contrast, nobody understands the modern mindless babbling.
What is even more fascinating is that the modern manifestation is a lot more widespread then most might appreciate. Other non-Christian religious groups also practise it. Felicitas Goodman, a Hungarian anthropologist compared it with recordings of rituals from Japan, Indonesia, Africa and Borneo and concluded that there was no distinction, it truly is universal and quite easily crosses religious divides. [Goodman, Felicitas D. (1972). Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.]
Finally, just to prove the point that there is no sky-magic involved and that this is just a learned behaviour, there was a study carried out with a group of 60 non-believing undergraduates. 20% could accomplish it after listening to only a 60 second sample and about 70% could succeed with some moderate training. [Spanos, Nicholas P.; Cross, Wendy P.; Lepage, Mark; Coristine, Marjorie (February 1986). “Glossolalia as learned behavior: An experimental demonstration”. Journal of Abnormal Psychology 95]
The Bible states in 1 Cor 14.22 that “tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not”. Well, this non-believer hasnow weighed and measured it all and found it to be mindless babbling. The only sign that this gives is that the believers who practise this are delusional. (I include my past self in that last sentence).
If you are still a believer, and are starting to have doubts, then you might be interested in chatting with me to understand why I am not longer a believer (I promise a friendly discussion) – contact me at skeptic [at] skeptical-science.com (forgive the cryptic email, its to avoid the bots auto- scraping the email address and spamming me)
To those who still believe and have reached here with the, “But I know its real” thought still intact; well, that’s exactly how I felt. What you have to realise is that you are in the grip of a very powerful psychological trick. Before you move on, pause and carefully consider what you have read; I’m not presenting you with an alternative opinion, but rather with hard solid scientific proof that it is not real.
the long ending of mark is not accepted by majority of scholars..
Nobody knows for sure what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is yet people are out there everyday just trying to survive
Rachel, with due respect, how do you know all this? Is it just your theory? If so, you might preface your statements with, “It is my opinion that…”, or did someone else tell you this? If so, who and what are their credentials or sources? Do you have an ET spirit guide who answers questions for you? If so, say so. This movement of truth can only move forward with verifiable information. None of this resonates with me and it is my feeling (see how I did that?) that this is a pagan ritual directed by Satan in order to get between Christians and God. I could be wrong, but you have not convinced me of it.
Hi you say Jesus came to you personally but does anyone know what Jesus looks like? Does the Bible not say the devil can transform himself to Angel of light ??
Just a note beware of this unknown
Hi
Just a thought you mentioned Acts 2 38, if you go back a few verses the the gift of the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues. However this referral to speaking different earthly languages why get to verse 2 38 and it’s now a different speaking in tongues than earthly languages?
I remember going to a wedding between a “completed Jew” (the groom had been born into a Jewish family, but had become a believer) & a Christian woman. After they had exchanged vows there was a time of prayer. Someone (a member of this 100-member humble church) erupted into a long prayer. No translation… A little uncomfortable, since the groom had plenty of his Jewish family. After the service, more than one of his Jewish relatives were asking who had taught Hebrew in the church. No one had. The person who had spoken in tongues prayed the Hebrew prayer, in full, for that “holiday”, or holy date in the Jewish calendar. So don’t tell me speaking in tongues is nonsense. Unless you don’t believe in the Bible, then that’s how you should preface this entire silly article.
This sounds amazing.
We can validate all this because you have the details. Let’s get the ball rolling on an investigation into this please.
Oh but to “know Him” Jesus Christ our Lord and savior. It is the plan of salvation as written in Acts 2:38 —Then Peter said unto them repent and be baptized EVERYONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues is a gift from God. The unknown tongue that Jesus gives is not only a promise and part of salvation, it is also a direct language between you and God that no one need understand. It is supernatural. On another note. The devil himself believes in the Holy Ghost (speaking in tongues) so one should be very careful how they disregard this gift of God. Satan can and will confuse people into thinking they can chant a tongue. When one gets the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, they will never ever doubt it again, unless they began to let satan lead them astray. Speaking in tongues is not a practiced or learned emotion. It is not a hypnotism. It is very real. Also the Bible says “all sin is forgiven except for blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 12:31-32 – Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Read More…)
Luke 12:10 – And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
If one does not know about tongues why venture into something that could be demonic as other false religions also speak in tongues
Hey Rachel! I appreciate the information, I am able to ‘speak in tongues’ and have had no idea what it’s all about. I was prayed over a few years ago and the ability just came from that experience. I’ve done research to try to find out more about it, but other than religious reference I wasn’t able to find much. I did come across light language which seems similar if not the same but still was left wondering what’s the point. Occasionally I will do it just during meditation and prayer but have not understood any benefits It brought if any. I really resonated with your explanation that it brings our body in harmony through the energy. Would love to know where you found this explanation so I can learn more and start exploring the benefits of this practice.
ha ha no just alter your brain wave pattern. Think Delta/Theta not Alpha/Beta!
I’m not sure how you only did it twice? Once it is activated it remains? Like riding a bike. It is an energetic language, its purpose is to heal and regulate the body. It is not using ‘words in the sense’ of semantics because its purpose is to bypass that part of the brain and create flow. Processing words would slow it down. Each organ emits a harmonic sound but its not saying ‘I’m beating irregularly, its sound changes when at dis-ease and when the brain picks up that sound (now out of tune) it signals to other places in the body that can send energy to it. We are God (consciousness) and inside of us is the cent re of the universe. What we think and speak will become. We are consciousness experiencing life in a physical reality, which we create every moment.
No. It is an energetic language its purpose to transmit healing and regulation to our body and possibly can activate another’s too.
Just a note here. It has been scientifically proven now that it’s not the same as a mantra meditation as that lights up the front lobar section which demands focus and control. Lets say Mantra is more alpha brain wave and energetic language is more Theta.
Hi, I realise this is an old post but thought I would leave a few notes from a balanced perspective of science vs spiritual.
I was 16 when I ‘received speaking in tongues’ at a Pentecostal type church but within a hidden cult like structure. “there way was the only way etc’. We were taught ‘speaking in tongues’ was proof you had received holy spirit. Then on a Sunday service we used to deliver the gifts. ‘Gift of Tongues with Gift of Prophecy.’
One person would feel called to speak in tongues in front of the group. Then another was anointed to interpret it (The prophecy). I believe the fervor of belief manifested this because I did the interpretation a couple of time in my late teens and it was a very strange experience. My whole body was hot and the words that came out were not premeditated. It was like they were being forced out of my mouth, Normally they were about something to do with the end of the world, doom gloom and motivation to continue being loyal etc. or worse about backsliding (when you leave the church and are cut off from everyone forever and are told you will go to hell etc.)
I did eventually leave after 8 years of misery, depression, anxiety, doom and gloom….
It took years to recover. I refused to speak tongues ever again. Last year ( age 50) with no religious attachments, walking along the beach I began singing and realised I was singing in a weird language’. I didn’t associate with tongues as wasn’t the same experience. This has developed and I can sing and talk a multitude of different I call them energetic sounds. Some sound like old Tibetan chants, others like italian opera, there are Germanic, Chinese and the strangest ones are those that sound like computers (beeps and whirrs and chirps) or ocean/wind noises. I can also hear these sounds in water, in trees and rocks.
So I am now in deep research over what I believe are ‘energetic languages sounds’ that we have innately inside of us. Call it our essence, our unique sound imprint. Everything is energy. Energy has a vibration, a sound, a tune. Did you know every organ, every cell in our body creates a harmonic sound? Its how our body communicates with itself, to heal and regulate.
There are lots of scientific studies now showing that our brain shows increases in relaxation and altered brain wave patterns ( such as Delta) when we use this energetic language. It shuts off our mind and the parts that want to explain everything in words and increases our parietal lobe activity which increases our sense of self relating to oneness with our environment and the rest of the world.
In the beginning was the ‘word’ and the word was with God and the word was God. The interpretation of ‘word’ is actually ‘Shim’ which is a voiceless sibilant, basically a sound without using the vocal chords in other words ‘breath’. Breath is consciousness.
According to Jung (1964), glossolalia occurs in cases of predominance of the unconscious, prior to assimilation of the content into consciousness, i.e. it represents the example of invasion of the unconscious contents into the consciousness prior to integration of the personality . Such assimilation represents, in fact, the solution (solve) of repressed emotional complex, which was kept away (far) from consciousness by the repressing mechanisms as unsatisfactory (unacceptable). It is manifested in changed behavior (conduct) and a line (chain) of wrong actions (acts) in communication with surroundings that increase insecurity and fear (in the circle). Resolving the suppressed emotional complex the forces of depression are unburdened and the subjective feeling of being relieved, calm and secure occurs.
The answer I believe is and has always been inside of us….not out there. Not because of a church or religion. Not because you have been good, or bad. I am because I am. All is energy, all has a vibration, from a blade of grass to a giant tree. We are one with it all and it with us. We have a symbiotic relationship with everything and everyone. I hope this helps someone.
Thanks for sharing this Julie. I also feel it is just like mantra meditation
If you can speak in tongues do you understand what you speaking? if not have you tried
“For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says” (1 Corinthians 14:13)
Hi Anonymous
Having the gift of tongues now what have you done with the gift? What has changed in your life. Are you assured of your salvation or are you relying on your speaking as proof that you are saved.
When I received tongues I had thought they were weird and didn’t really want the gift but one night in my room Jesus came with eyes of flames and fire all around him and baptised me in holy spirit. I received th holy spirit and tongues, it happened and no one taught me, his holy spirit did it. If u don’t believe in tongues thats because you’ve never had the gift – and your trying to debate things of a spiritual nature with your logic and head knowledge lacking heart and deep revelation. I don’t even go to church anymore. But I am reconciled to God and pray everyday and live my life following christ. And doing the will of the father.
This article is something Satan would write. Deceptive. I pray in Jesus name the eyes of your understanding be opened. Bless
For those who speak in tongues, do they understand each other? Can they carry on conversations in tongues?
My name is Moe and I speak in tongues as well. I think it’s an earthly language. Please email me savethequeen77@gmail.com
Dave, I came across this article while searching for more information regarding speaking in tongues. So far my search as turnrd up a lot, but mostly tied to Chrisianity. I can “talk in tongues” it is a long story about how this came to be. Anyway, I do know that penticostal churches practices it, I have read all the bible scriptures about it. I was looking for more and objective view of it. It is a real thing, I can do it. I have no desire to try to convince anyone else that its real. You said that you used to believe in it, does that mean you were able to do it also? But then stop, or where you pretending that you were able to in order to fit in. I just want to find out what it is, and other peoples experience with doing it. Seperate from the religious aspect of it.
Hi Alison,
Today I can speak in tongues. I’m also not religious.
At a conference where I was giving a talk about speaking in tongues, I explained to all those attending how to do this. We then gave it a go and the vast majority were soon speaking in tongues.
The human religious experience is basically emotional. You can tap into that by bypassing the speech centre of the brain – no beliefs in anything at all required.
The experience is quite real and not in any way supernatural.
Many thanks for reaching out
Thank You Samuel
Were is Ros comment?
Ross,,,thank you,,I agree with what your saying
Therefore, the gift of tongues in ACTS is speaking in a language a person does not know in order to minister to someone who does speak that language.
speaking in tongues is valuable to the one hearing God’s message in his or her own language, but it is useless to everyone else unless it is interpreted/translated.
Hi where does it say in the bible that speaking in tongues
reduce stress in people
psychologically, physically, and spiritually fulfilling
Feel a sense of sweet release and inner peace
We live by faith not by emotions, experiences or feelings…..these change but Gods word does not
WHAT WAS THE ACTUAL REASON FOR THE GIFT OF TONGUES WAS IT NOT FOR
Was a sign for the unbeliever
Was to worship God
Was for a person speaking only one language but understood by many various foreign languages
Was one hearing God’s message in his or her own language
“For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says” (1 Corinthians 14:13)
It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, “If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God” (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)
Hi Samuel Arbelo
what are you doing with the gift you received? How has it helped you? Have you received any OTHER giftS that you have also asked AND prayed for for such as Healing or other gifts? Does scripture say EVERYONE receives the speaking of tongues?
You are right there are false evil tongues
there are also learnt behaviour of tongues
there are experiences of tongues but which tongue has been received?
Feelings, experiences, emotions change BUT Gods word does not change
What do you understand “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” means?
Interesting subject
Hi Anonymous
just a few comments I have used your comments and answered in capital letters to make it easier to differentiate your comments from mine
studies have been done , with brain scans , and speaking in tongues does not activate the speech areas of the brain, showing us that it is not a made up socially learned behavior , DO ALL OTHER RELIGIONS THAT ALSO SPEAK IN TONGUES EXACTLY LIKE THE CHRISTIANS DO AND TONGUES DOES NOT ACTIVATE THE SPEECH AREAS IN THEIR AS WELL BRIAN ? DO HAVE THEY ALSO GOT GODS GIFT???????? it comes from the HUMAN SPIRIT , first generated by God’s Spirit. once you have the gift , it never goes away even if you back slide and even become atheist. IF YOU SAY YOU HAVE THE GIFT AND THAT THE GIFT PROVES THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY THEN LETS LOOK AT MARK 16 BELOW SPIRIT Some people have the ability to fake and copy it, because of peer pressure , But When You Have The Real Gift You will Know it. The “its not real tongues like in acts “…comes from not studying the subject deep enough . Paul spoke in tongues that No Man knows….in acts, there was two miracles happening , speaking and hearing. Read the story in Acts , with out any preconceived ideas then read 1st cor, on the subject
MARK 16
7
But go, tell his disciples and Peter, `He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.'”
8
Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
9
[1] When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.
10
She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping.
11
When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
12
Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.
13
These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.
14
Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
20
Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.
IF ONE READS THE CHAPTER WHO WERE THE UNBELIEVERS “THE APOSTLES “
WHAT WAS THE COMMAND IN VERSE 15 “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. ARE YOU (WE) DOING THAT?
VERSE 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe:….THESE SIGNS WILL ONLY HAPPEN IF THEY BELIEVED WHY BECAUSE THE APOSTLES WERE THE UNBELIEVERS THEY NOW HAD TO BELIEVE SO THAT THESE SIGNS WOULD ACCOMPANY THEM
NOW VERSES 17 AND 18
17 In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
HERE THEY RECEIVED ALL THESE GIFTS NOT ONE OR THE OTHER. SO IF YOU SAY YOU SPEAK IN TONGUES THEN YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLACE YOUR HANDS ON THE SICK AND THEY WILL GET HEALED.
THEREFORE WHEN THE DISCIPLES WENT OUT WHAT HAPPENED THEY HEALED EVERYONE, WITH THESE GIFTS. NOT LIKE TODAY, PEOPLE SAY THEY HAVE THE GIFT BUT CAN NOT HEAL ANYONE, OR ONLY SEE A HEALING ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR. IF YOU HAVE THE GIFT THEN YOU SHOULD BE OUT THERE GOING INTO THE WHOLE WORLD HEALING PEOPLE INSTANTLY AS WELL,.
WHO WERE TOLD TO GO AND WAIT FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE APOSTLES
acts 4 And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”…
studies have been done , with brain scans , and speaking in tongues does not activate the speech areas of the brain, showing us that it is not a made up socially learned behavior , it comes from the HUMAN SPIRIT , first generated by God’s Spirit. once you have the gift , it never goes away even if you back slide and even become atheist. Some people have the ability to fake and copy it, because of peer pressure , But When You Have The Real Gift You will Know it. The “its not real tongues like in acts “…comes from not studying the subject deep enough . Paul spoke in tongues that No Man knows….in acts, there was two miracles happening , speaking and hearing. Read the story in Acts , with out any preconceived ideas then read 1st cor, on the subject
That’s the same as a baby making noises-it’s clearly whatever noises and sounds you can think of, as you go, and that’s it.
Hi great that you recieved speaking in tongues. Please let us know what we’re the first words that you received in tongues which you got in Arabic.
What messages are you receiving in tongues. Sjjow us a few interpretation of what God is giving you in speaking in tongues. Share a few messages from God
Thank you
Preach it brotha. Praise God!
Woohoo!
Hello everyone! I received this gift of tongues. Discovered that I was speaking Arabic. I also wrote in arabic. A language I’ve never even thought about learning. Not sure how much proof you need beyond that. ♀️ If there’s a way I can prove I never learned it on own, let me know. I tried learning Japanese once… didn’t really stick to it. It’s not easy to follow God. No one ever claims it’s easy. It is super easy though, to ignore God and to write it all off as brainwash. This is very easy to do. Easy to go on and do what you want, make as much money as you can, follow all your desires and ambitions. But living a life following Jesus Christ? It is quite a feat. You won’t recognize yourself after following Him for a time… If you follow Him long enough, it won’t be easy to go back. ;) I’m not a preacher or a scholar or any kinda expert. But I have gotten enough proof already, that God isn’t a dream. Or a figment. Or a psychologically induced dysphoria. There is nothing out there that compares to the peace of God. I’m not here to brag… only to try speaking the unpopular opinion. God doesn’t choose favorites… if a believer is claiming so or being self righteous, this is not the way of God. Anyone and everyone can receive gifts from God. But have you gotten a present from someone you’ve never met before? Probably not. So maybe it’s about time to meet your maker. Before it’s too late.
I received a real language… perhaps your conclusions are outdated? I really hope you don’t go the easy way. It’ll feel good at times, you’ll feel lost at other times, like something is missing. Then you’ll find ways to feel good again. Back n forth, on the cusp of falling too far… or perhaps an ongoing walk through the bottom-most rung. I’m only saying these things, cause I’ve endured these things. And I’ve also endured this unbelievable thing you doubt today. Doesn’t matter if you’ve “attended church before”. You will never know of what I speak, until you approach God and find out yourself. That’s the best scientific test you can perform! Go and test what all these crazy people have done. Approach God, with faith, at least for a few minutes, ask of Him what you need in order to be satisfied with Him. Just ask. Nobody will know if you try. You’ll be surprised. Faith is the key tho. Don’t do it just to prove me wrong lol.
The Word of God, aka the bible, is one of the ways you may hear Him. Though He is everywhere, and will do what He must in order to greet you. But you have to approach Him first.
“Can I talk to you? Can we be friends? I want to talk to you. I want to tell you by God. God be upon you, God all of us. I tell you, by God. God bless you, I will ransom you. ”
My name is Ro-Z.
I don’t dispute scriptural claims on this topic. But I do suspect that many modern Christians do the tongues bit out of their own wish to feel that they are part of the group, and maybe they are more spiritually evolved than others. I say this from personal experience.
Speaking in a particular manner is a foundational element of how one identifies with a social group. Examples abound. Consider recent politics. Or consider rap “music”, or any language associated with a social group such as doctors, lawyers, even hillbilly rednecks. Yes, even hillbilly rednecks. You want to fit into a liberal social group? Just use the accepted phraseology. You want to get that redneck to move his truck so you can get out of the parking lot? Just use his type of language and accent.
Great commentary! Many studies have been done by psychologists that seem to suggest that engaging in non-cognitive non-language utterance (i.e. “speaking in tongues”) does actually reduce stress in people. It’s very much akin to chanting, deep meditation/prayer, etc.
For those that use it, it is very psychologically, physically, and spiritually fulfilling. It’s almost like primal screaming. When people practice ‘tongues’, they feel a sense of sweet release and inner peace, in that virtually all stress can be gone after the experience.
I grew up in the church……….ore moderate denominations in my earlier years and later in the evangelical movement during the 70’s and very early 80’s. While visiting family in the Bay Area, they were all assigned to the choir section of the Kathryn Kuhlman Revival. Being a singer myself, i was willing to join the choir for a night. I was 14. Very impressionable period of life. Anyways, I started speaking in tongues that night. (No, I do not think I was special. I just joined in the gibberish. No harm, now foul.) Anyway, I continued using this little behavior for years in the church. I knew it was a beautiful way of letting go.
In my late 20’s, while getting my MA in counseling, I left the church. It no longer served the same purpose that it had in my younger years. But, I remember bringing up the point of talking in tongues in my Lifespan Development class. I mentioned the possibility of it being a practice to help the brain “let go” of control, reducing the chemicals associated with stress. There was a lot of nodding. This was 1991.
Fast forward to last night. I was having a hard time relaxing to go to sleep last night. I couldn’t for the life of me settle down. I remembered an Alan Watts audio where he discussed the Episcopalian Church being up in arms (this was taped in the late 60’s early 70’s) because there was a wild little talking in tongues trend taking place within the Holy bowels of the church. “Don’t they know who we are? We are refined and in control of our religious practice!) Alan’s response was, “I think it’s quite refreshing to see perfectly, normal people losing their minds with glossolalia. So, if it is good enough for Alan, it’s good enough for me. Laying there, in my cushy Costco sheets, I very quietly started “speaking in tongues.” Instantly, I relaxed and at peace. It was amazing. The tongues practice redirects the energy from the stress related centers of my brain, to a much more peaceful area. It felt great. Later in the night when I awoke, I started all over again and was able to go back to sleep. (I’m a chronic insomniac.) When I awoke this morning, I felt rested and refreshed.
Personally, I think anyone can do it. It seems a bit narcissistic when people brag about getting their prayer language from God. Aren’t you special now? snicker Sure, God is in the business of having favorites. Sounds just like God. Come on people!! Get over yourselves. You are not special. But, you are just as wonderful as everyone else. Embrace that.
So, in closing…………..I support conscious, unconscious gibberish. Just be careful of who you share your practice with. It’s still not generally acceptable but it is therapeutic.
Insightful and fascinating Julie. Many thanks for sharing that, it is greatly appreciated.
Do you not believe that science at its core is what you say, that the personal beliefs of those scientists have no influence on there outcomes? I think science has shown the effects personal bias can have on even peer reviewed studies. Just look at so many medical studies that okayed drugs that were very obviously bad. Still to this day. Opiates still being prescribed on mass for example would be a bi product this bias. It’s very obvious how scientifically bad these are yet scientists with their personal and financial biases have said the oppposite for decades. Science is not pro or anti God but people are and scientist are people and therefore fallible to personal bias (I.e. being pro or anti God)
Wow. Just wow. So to be able to “Speak in tongues” I have to extensively brainwash myself? No thanks.
I spoke in tongues twice as a teenager in the early 80’s. It’s an uncontrollable action that science cannot disprove!
20 years later I remembered a few words and decided to try to translate them online. Basically what I had said two decades earlier was, “God is great”. Now (in my early 50’s) I can’t remember the mysterious words that came out of my mouth.
All I can do is laugh at scientists who try to say “it’s not a real language”. They come to conclusions to justify their own disbelief and expect people to accept it as facts.
Scientists really need to keep their anti God views to themselves!
Science is neither pro-god nor anti god. The way science works is this. An observation of something is made. People then formulate an idea that explains it. They then test that idea to find out if it is or is not wrong. If it is not wrong then we have a provisional understanding until more evidence or a better testable idea emerges.
So far there is no verification that tongues is anything more than a human emotional response. This is neither a pro-god nor an anti-god stance. It is simply an honest conclusion when all the available evidence is analysed and tested. If you have better verifiable and independently tested evidence, then please do feel free to share it, publish it and shout about it, because it would be a truly fascinating discovery.
I my self was curious about speaking in Tongues, but those who don’t understand of course is not within the spirit of God. Reread Acts and dissect every word.. You cant just take classes to be a part of this, just to know if it’s true. I really get a kick out of people who try to LEARN or SPEAK a celestial language. Yes you can learn to speak different languages but not celestial. In order to really be gifted with (speaking in tongues) The language of tongues is a SPIRITUAL GIFT, and it comes FROM the HOLY SPIRIT.
Key word is ( It comes from the Holy Spirit) not a teacher or a professor. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions, but if you truly want the gift you must submit yourself to GOD and he’ll take care of the rest. When I first heard someone speaking in tongues I was confused but also intrigued.
I started to attend services and submitted myself for God, and one of my prayers that I wanted answered was ( The Gift of speaking in tongues) and of course everything is in Gods timing. I prayed for months and months for this gift.. One day I prayed in my room.. I definitely felt gods presence, I started to proclaim his name and focused on worshiping him… Once I felt the Holy Spirit of god.. he take over …I started to praise him out loud until my English praise transformed to a fireball of tongues.
My spirit or my soul started to speak in tongues.. a unknown language I’ve never studied for or practiced.. I know it came from God, Because when you submit yourself to God he will answer your prayers and your souls desire as well as the gift of discernment of knowing what is from god or what is not.
I consciously knew what was happening but the spirit took over,, I was listening to each word that came out my mouth. Once I received that amazing blessing I did my homework and looked up the words I spoke, also asked God for wisdom
AB•BA Aramaic language meaning Father
Allah : is the Arabic word for God in Abrahamic religion
Sometimes it might just be our soul communicating with God speaking angelic languages, that not human nor angels or demons understand but just God.
(1 Corinthians 14 :: NIV. Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.)
So if you can’t interpret the languages, then it’s just not ment for us to.. because it’s our souls that’s communicating with God himself.
It might be a msg for the church ! Or a Particular msg for someone who truly needs it.
I can personally say Speaking in tongues is real. Not because I studied it or tried to Learn it by teachers,, but because I actually had a connection with God.. a personal spiritual connection. I can definitely beat if you ask these experts if they ever had a fully spiritual connection with God, meaning if they ( confessed there sins.. Worshiping God in a regular basis.. reading Gods word .. fully submitting themselves into gods presence ) I’m sure they never have experienced any of it.
People might say I go to church every Sunday or I pray.. but there’s so much to it then just a Sunday brunch..people are more focus on science and will you give answers that will draw you away from god.
Now if you believe in God .. your underestimating his power, I dare you or anyone reading this to have a deep spiritual connection with god.. if your writing about it and say it’s not true your still In search of finding the truth.
Just how there are people of God there is also people that worship evil,, that being said not everyone that says there holy are holy. I’ve seen supernatural Demonic possession, where they have spoken in tongues. That’s why we always must pray for the discernment of the Holy Spirit to know what is from God.
But that’s another subject, it gets deeper. But other then that this is my personal experience my testimony on how I use to think like you, but when you fully submit yourself God will prove to you that his gifts are real.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unforgivable
Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. … And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
I have no doubt about this at all, and I can truly say that, My god is real as well as his promise of his Holy Spirit and his gifts. I’m presenting the truth the light and the way.. not what men say…but what God has Promised to us. The enemy will always try to find a way to gear you the wrong way.
Think about it...again I dare you to have that spiritual encounter with God and you will see the truth. Ask and you shall receive !!
Matthew 7:7-8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Thanks so much for sharing.
@Marrtin… the miracle is in both, depending upon the biblical story. Peters story is different.
what you’ve said is different from the arguement. The point is no one understands anyone in today’s act of speaking in tongues. Completely different from Peter speaking 3k understanding. Oh by the way, some understood Peter’s language. Many thinks the miracle is only in speaking. What’s the point of speaking if no one understands it?
SO TRUE
Tongues ( always a human language) was always a miraculous occurrence. The miracle was not in the speaking, but in the hearing. Peter preached in one language and 3000 were saved and they each heard in their own language .
One thing I wonder, just examining the neurological studies on this, is something that occurs to me regarding times when I try to talk in my sleep while dreaming. There are some cases in the dream state where people talk absolutely coherently. There are other cases where the sense of a need to talk is very strong within the dream, but the brain is not able to access the motors of speech. The result is a sense of frustration, and sometimes the frustration itself wakes the dreamer up in the middle of trying to talk. What comes out when trying to speak while the motor control of speech is either shut down or altered can sound, sometimes, very, very strange. I have also heard that the effect of stroke in the brain can create a kind of disconnection between the intention of speech and what is actually vocalized.
The reason I find this pertinent is that I wonder, if it possible that the experience of speaking in tongues has, as its prerequisite, some kind of movement into state of worship or intense focus on the religious experience, that brings on the dissociation between the area of the brain that sends out the intentions of speech, and that part of the brain and voice where the motors of speech actually operate. In the case of frustration in the dream state, there is often some kind of fear-based drive to warn or cry out in the dream, hence the dysphoria of that specific kind of experience. Likewise with stroke.
But if the experience of speaking in tongues is based on a different kind of pre-condition, namely expression of belief, desire to make spiritual connection, and that sort of thing which occurs in the context of a spiritual methodology of worship, much of which may be reinforced by direction of one’s optimism in the context of group worship, for example, that might explain why the unhinging of the different areas involved in the neurology and motor control of speech doesn’t feel disconnected, and even maybe explains why it often feels good. Though, I am thinking that the good feeling already exists as something of a prerequisite to the dissociation.
I also think that the same prerequisite dissociation of normally linked brain functions exhibits, albeit in a much different way – through listening in this case – in hypnosis, and may also explain out-of-body experiences, which I wonder about, given the brain’s vast potential to use recall to recreate the details necessary for a realistic simulation of out-of-body movement.
Most fascinating to me is this: a neurological explanation does not negate the experience of intense faith, or of the sense of spiritual experiences such as hypnosis, seances, out-of-body experiences, and so forth. In fact, if the brain is provisional of a spiritual experience and interpretation of life, it is, as I see it, profound unto itself. Add to that the overwhelming suggestion of data, that the human being is not only predisposed to experience life on spiritual terms, but tends to have a tough time navigating life without such things. I would be curious to know if anyone has ever made a study to find out details about the distribution of people as it relates to a extreme lack of what we would call a “supernatural” experience of life, to the other end of the bell curve containing those who regularly interact with life as a supernatural experience.
1 Cor. 14 is concerned with speaking in tongues in church and not with any private prayer language. “Church” or “in church” is mentioned eight times throughout the chapter. The whole chapter is concerned with Paul admonishing the Corinthians on orderly worship. Paul plainly prohibits anyone from speaking in tongues in church unless there is an interpreter (v. 28), because without an interpreter, “…how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.” (v. 9b).
Paul also dismisses praying in tongues in church in vv. 14-15. He points out that if he were to pray in a tongue, his mind would be unfruitful. Clearly this is not good, because immediately he asks, “What am I to do?” Then he gives the answer: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.” Paul is making the point that praying with one’s mind and spirit is preferable to praying with one’s spirit only. And he is obviously referring to praying in church because in v. 16 he says, “Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying.” And in v. 17 he says “…the other person is not being built up.” Obviously someone besides the tongues speaker is present, so Paul is obviously telling the Corinthians not to pray in tongues in church (unless someone interprets, as he has already said in v. 5 and will say again in v. 27). As I said, this entire chapter is devoted to instructions for orderly worship.
But what about private prayer? Well, Jesus himself gave us very clear instructions for private prayer, and they don’t include speaking in tongues. In fact, he cautions against it. “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matt. 6:7-8) These are Jesus’s instructions for private prayer, in your room with the door shut (v. 6). Clearly we don’t need to use a private prayer language to convey our deepest, innermost needs to God, because He knows what they are even before we say anything. We have that from Jesus himself.
But there may be times when, in our weakness, we truly do not know how to pray. Don’t worry, God has us covered. “Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” (Rom. 8:26-27) This is the Holy Spirit interceding for us, not our own spirits interceding for us, for how could our spirit intercede for itself? Paul is building on the thoughts in the previous verses, where he says “…we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons…” (v. 23) And of course we know from Hebrews that Jesus also intercedes for us. “Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” (Heb. 7:25)
Nowhere in scripture are we commanded to speak in tongues, and nowhere are we commanded to seek an emotional “high.” Our theology should be based on the Word of God, not on our experiences or someone else’s stories about their experiences.
So whether you believe the gift of tongues died out in the first century or whether you believe it is still active, you shouldn’t ever speak in tongues in church unless there is someone present with the gift of interpretation, and you shouldn’t ever heap up empty phrases in your private prayers. My advice: Stick to English when you pray, and do as much listening as you do talking.
the word” tongue” in greek (glōssē). then chapter 14:10 the word (phōnōn) which means “of languages”. funny because if you read verse before 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible(eusēmon – meaning “well indicated” or significant), how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. now if you read the chapter paul keeps using the word (oikodomei) which translates to edify,build up, structure, confirm. like building up a house. paul pairs this word edify(oikodomei) with tongues(glōssē) and prophesy(prophēteia) which can also mean speaking under inspiration,or communicating revealed truth.
from this and basic understanding of communication. he wants people to build up there speech either it be in there head or coming out there mouth. its a running dialog with a purpose to edify oneself. you can talk for hours but unless you can get to a point its pointless. the point is to get to a point. a thesis a conclution. if you come to a conclusion why and how did you come to that conclusion? you can give a commandment but if people ask you why and you cant explain why, they look at you like you do things without question. but if you just talk bible speak and there is no conclution or point you are getting to, people will look at you like your a zealot or a crazy person just babbling. tongues is for the unbeliever, from my experience you cant tell an athiest to follow the commandments, he will ask you why? and you better have a why or they will think your stupid and affirm there ideas. but if your edifying your self in tongues moving towards conclusions then you are not debating or commanding them you are dialoging with them where they participate and move towards the same natural truth you do. and you are both edified. paul said he would rather give 5 clear words in instruction, then speak 10,000 words in tongues.
with tongues you can indeed say you are dialoging and pondering the mysteries, unknowns of the world and universe. if you are pondering those unknown things you are connecting pieces and trying to put them together. you could find it out, you might not get that answer. if you are lucky you will get a revelation and everything will become clear and those mysteries will no longer be unknown. you will get it. but now you have to communicate it and explain why? once you have edified your speech then you can prophesy (prophēteia)communicating revealed truth. paul wants everyone to try and find the truth speak in tongues, but he would rather everyone (prophēteia)communicating revealed truth.
Also if you have a speech or concept in your head you could write a speech, then translate it in other languages. You could translate word for word to convey the massage. But obviously the order of words might be jumbled. Like how spanish can be spoken backwards in english in ways. Same with some phrases in greek to english. So they could be speaking a message in another lauguage but the order of the words and the lauguage it could sound like how yoda would speak. So you could write a message use the key words and concepts but depending on the lauguage and the order of words it could sound backwards in parts like how yoda would speak. So thus some people thinking they were drunk. also maybe/most likely the dialect was not perfect like a foreigner speaking with his thick accent in your lauguage.
Also the greek were master logician they had “Socratic questioning” and held critical thinking in the highest of regards to philosophy and finding the truth. This was for debates to disarm the sophist. Who would use emotion and tricks in order to win debates. The sophist did not care about truth but only about winning with rhetoric. This was highly despised by the greeks and anyone who used these tactics would have been torn apart in the debate arena. Thus why paul would of wanted his congregation to edify there tongue. He wanted thinkers who could talk what they were thinking in a clear efficient manner. And these greeks would of naturally known of Socrates, Aristotle, plato’s, advanced methods of critical thinking. Which many of the Christians originally were before converting.
It is soooooo much easier and comforting to be an atheist and an existentialist…! (which, btw, i am).
https://youtu.be/NZbQBajYnEc
I wonder how can you trust isolates studies which by no means are or can be conclusive.
You just got crisis of faith and then left it – nothing new. Then you became radical sceptic ie faithless – nothing new, but wrong still.
Putting aside the ABC link to a news item, and going directly to the Penn state university study itself, what exactly is it you think that this establishes?
– Sub questions to help: your heart beats, but you don’t consciously do this, is the fact that your heart beats like this beyond your conscious control supernatural?
– You can and do learn to do things automatically, for example at a football match some people respond and express emotions subconsciously by standing and yelling in joy as their team wins, is this supernatural?
What leads you to conclude that anything supernatural is going on?
Is faith a reliable way to reach conclusions that are true?
The Bible states in 1 Cor 14.22 that “tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not”.
Hi there! “I am not who I am, but who I am not,” I’m a workman! In tongues I can tell u ..I understand in more and less in knowing..was where I realised today’s language was not mis-interpreted, it is us beings!..letters do not lie, but words do..
Hi there!
The one thing I understood was not to knowing anything as we can never predict, The Knowing Knowledge Is Claimed Only Of GOD..our CREATOR!..
There is more to life that i do not even know about for our understanding more of which is inner-selves deep with-in, there are few things there I gave to understanding of its controlling, But it was the seeking inner that grew out wisdom (IN NOT UNDERSTANDING IS NONE-SUCH THING just like our choices we choose not to UNDERSTAND..we do not give it that time to find..it’s all it is..TIME) ..but truthfully with today’s knowledge we will never know/understand the TRUTH in the hidden mysteries…Why? Because we all to selfish to not even try to understand the TRUTH..that is just how today has working our minds to auto..through selfishness! And what it is which today for brings us great pleasant to our eyes with it strengthening ..reason causing why most are not opened minded, needy eyes to believe it.
THE HIDDEN MYSTERIES..eyes will not find it, it is the whole(Holy) body that the heart gives that will to seek it..
Workman✌️
I have experienced the real power of the Holy Ghost while praying in tongues. I speak in tongues and I get direction for my life. I speak in tongues and get answers to stuff I didn’t previously know. It is God’s will for us to speak in tongues. Paul said that he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks mysteries and speaks unto the Lord.
Don’t be deceived, speaking in tongues is a gift from God which he wants us all to enjoy.
Do read the scientific benefits of speaking in tongues too
I have experienced the real power of the Holy Ghost while praying in tongues.
WHAT WAS THE REAL POWER DID YOU EXPERIENCE WHILE PRAYING IN TONGUES. HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU PRAYED FOR WAS ANSWERED AS YOU DID NOT KNOW WHAT YOU PRAYED FOR IN YOUR HEAVENLY LANGUAGE? I speak in tongues and I get direction for my life. WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE FOR SPEAKING IN TONGUES, WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT SPEAKING IN TONGUES GIVES YOU DIRECTION IN LIFE?
I speak in tongues and get answers to stuff I didn’t previously know.
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE SPIRIT IS PRAYING, HOW CAN YOU GET ANSWERS? OR ARE YOU PRAYING WITH YOUR OWN SPIRIT AND YOUR OWN LANGUAGE?
It is God’s will for us to speak in tongues. IS IT? DO ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES? WHO WERE THE SIGN GIFTS FOR? HOW MANY TIMES DID SPEAKING IN TONGUES HAPPEN IN THE BOOK OF Acts AND WHO HAD TO BE PRESENT?
Paul said that he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks mysteries and speaks unto the Lord. PAUL SAID THAT
Don’t be deceived, speaking in tongues is a gift from God which he wants us all to enjoy.
IS TONGUES REALLY A GIFT FROM GOD THAT HE WANTS YOU TO ENJOY, DO YOU ENJOY SAYING THINGS THAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND? WHAT IF YOU ARE SPEAKING OTHER TONGUES AND NOT GODS TONGUES? WAS TONGUES GIVEN FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT OR WAS IT A SIGN FOR THE UNBELIEVER??
Do read the scientific benefits of speaking in tongues too.
WHAT ARE THE SCIENTIFIC BENEFITS OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES?
It looks like I can get a copy of Samarin’s study at researchgate.net for $7.95 but I’m hesitant to get it when Google doesn’t seem to bring up anyone talking about it.
The speaking in other languages at Pentecost in Acts 2, and at the Gentile ‘Pentecost’ in Acts 10, was not the ‘gift of tongues,’ because concerning the gift of tongues, Paul said, “Do all speak with tongues?” (1 Cor. 12:30), meaning they don’t. But on Pentecost, “they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues” (Acts 2:4); and at the Gentile ‘Pentecost,’ “the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word” (Acts 10:44). Acts 2 and 10 are the only ‘events’ in the Bible described as the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 1:4-5; 11:15-16).
The disciples didn’t receive the baptism of the Spirit in Acts 2 because they prayed. Jesus wanted the apostles to wait in Jerusalem because he knew he would give the Spirit on the feast of Pentecost, and it would be most profitable if the apostles were all together, but he was going to give the Spirit on schedule, “when the day of Pentecost was fully come” (Acts 2:1), regardless of what the apostles did. Yeshua fulfilled the Jewish feasts on the exact days they were being observed by the Jewish people: Unleavened Bread with his sinlessness body, Passover with his death as the Passover lamb, and Firstfruits with his being the first person resurrected; and the first three feasts required an absence of leaven, which represents sin. And Yeshua gave the indwelling Holy Spirit to make one body out of both Jews and Gentiles, on the exact day as scheduled per the feast of Pentecost, when two loaves of leavened bread were offered in the temple. “[After Passover] you shall number fifty days [Penta-cost, meaning fiftieth]; and you shall offer a new food offering to the Lord. You shall bring out of your houses two wave loaves … of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven,” Lev. 23:16-17.
From Acts 2 onward, every believer has been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Messiah the moment he’s justified (Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 12:13; Rom. 8:9-10); therefore it’s impossible to be baptized by the Spirit any time after the moment of justification, in contradiction to Pentecostal doctrine. And Acts 2 and 10 are the only times in the Bible where any outward manifestation ever accompanied Spirit baptism. Acts 2, because that’s when the indwelling Spirit was first given to the church; and Acts 10 because that’s the first time the Gentiles were baptized into the church, which was a very significant event (Acts 10-11). “[Messiah] has made both [Jews and Gentiles] one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us, … to make in himself of two [Jew and Gentile] one new man,” Eph. 2:14-15.
Acts 8 and 19 describe believers receiving the gifts of the Spirit sometime after justification and water baptism, by the laying on of the apostle’s hands. Acts 8 doesn’t explicitly say what Simon and the others saw as a result of the laying on of hands, but we ought to assume the same as in Acts 19, an exercise of spiritual gifts. Acts 8 makes it clear that anyone, like Phillip, can preach the gospel and bring people to justification; but one of the twelve apostles (including Paul, not Matthias) had to lay hands on a believer to give them a spiritual gift (Acts 8). That’s why Paul wanted to go to Rome, “that I may impart to you some spiritual gift” (Rom. 1:11).
When the last of the twelve apostles died, no more spiritual gifts were imparted; and when the last of the people who had received spiritual gifts died, no more spiritual gifts were exercised. Just as most of the miracles of the Old Testament were condensed into the first forty years of the existence of the nation of Israel created at the Exodus; likewise the miracles of the New Testament (after Messiah) were concentrated into the first forty years of the existence of the church created at Pentecost. Speaking in tongues in church meetings provided needed New Testament revelation before the New Testament was completed because “he that speaks in an unknown tongue … speaks ‘mysteries’” (1 Cor. 14:2), which in the Greek, doesn’t mean things hard to understand, but things previously unrevealed, i.e. another form of prophecy, but which also needed someone with the gift of interpretation to have any usefulness (1 Cor. 14).
Yes. The teaching of how to speak in tongues by churches, though well meaning, is not backed by biblical principles. The true evidence of God’s power is freedom from a lifestyle of sin, fear, and eternal damnation.
Speaking in tongues. UTTER. RUBBISH! Jesus did all the Holy Spirit gift stuff apart from speaking n interpretation of tongues.
Jesus had to die before he could send the Holy Spirit to live in us and build the Heavenly Church
Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism and never spoke in tongues
John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from birth. He did not speak in tongues.
Hi, I grew up Pentacostal but since leaving I have always wondered about speaking in tongues. I have seen things like what you discuss but I have also heard of/knew people who said they were able to suddenly speak real, established languages and I’m not sure how to explain it. Any thoughts?
There are numerous accounts in the tongues-speaking community of instances where a person supposedly heard someone speaking in tongues and it was perceived as the person’s native language, or someone recognized it as such-and-such a language. All instances of these are purely anecdotal. Virtually nothing is known about either party; the speaker or the ‘hearer’), nor is any specific details or information on what transpired given. I suspect many of these stories are told to bolster and promote the tongues experience within the tongue-speaking community. Such accounts essentially amount to hearsay with minimal detail. There are, unfortunately, no real documented cases of xenoglossy anywhere.
Hi Leah! I take it that u are a good person, especially for many personalities..I could be wrong, I get an understanding from your name says that Your emotions is what you depend or fall on…
I’m a workman, I’m speaking in tongue just by saying “Leah”…that’s what all said from your name..
It will be better if you said at the conclusion of your article that if we still believe, then fine for us instead of saying that we are in the grip of a powerful psychological trick. It will also be better if you just left people to their faith than trying so hard to discourage them from believing, because you’ve lost your way doesn’t mean everyone should follow your path.
IF ONE LEAVES PEOPLE TO THEOR OWN FAITH OR BELIEF COULD THIS NOT BE DANGEROUS. THAT’S WHY APOSTLE PAUL SAID IF ANY OTHER PERSON PREACHES ANOTHER GOSPEL THAN THE ONE I PREACH “BE HE ACCURSED.
THE TRUTH MUST BE REVEALED.
Hi, I believe that speaking in tongues is real and that a person speaks in tongues when their spirit wants to communicate with God, the Bible says whoever speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto man but unto God, if you keep reading, you’ll see where Paul said the mind doesn’t understand what the spirit says to God. When people speak in tongues each person has a distinct pattern which I think is the voice of each person’s spirit. I don’t think it’s nice if you come and tell people that they are babbling because some people are struggling with their Faith and relationship with God, their spirit is trying to communicate with God and they come and read your article, making things worse for them, making them think they are delusional. BTW God isn’t science, he’s far more greater so your solid scientific proof is for your scientific god.
It will be better if you said at the conclusion of your article that if we still believe, then fine for us instead of saying that we are in the grip of a powerful psychological trick. It will also be better if you just left people to their faith than trying so hard to discourage them from believing, because you’ve lost your way doesn’t mean everyone should follow your path.
I have a couple of questions …
– How did you determine that there is such a thing as “spirit”? (I get that you sincerely believe it, I’m not challenging that, I’m just curious to understand how you work out what is and is not real)
– When you deem me to be “Lost”, I believe if I can translate that correctly, what you are actually saying is that we simply have reached different conclusions … is that correct?
– How do you determine that your conclusions on the topic are correct, factual, and real?
-How come you exist as you not as me, who are you where did you come from, what makes people different, what makes people who they are?
-yes, we have reached different conclusions (not lost)
-i know I don’t have experiments to prove my point, but I know I have been through difficult times and pain and I know people who have survived things people commit suicide over, and I know the only thing that got us through it was the love of God. Talking to God brought happiness and hope that in the end, everything will be better.
Hi
If you say that when we speak in tongues ONLY God can understand us. Well is I speak in an earthly language and you do not understand it, then am I correct in saying that only God understands it as God knows all the earthly languages? You do not understand it.
If its a language only God understands, then why must it be interpreted? Is it for Satan to understand it or is a real earthly language that we just do not know?
Should one not tell people the TRUTH if they are being deceived in believing another Gospel?
You are not correct by saying only God understands the earthly language you speak but I don’t understand. To speak in tongues is real and it is to speak by the spirit.
and nobody say your tongues MUST be interpreted.
it is not an earthly language that we just do not know, all languages spoken currently on earth are learnt you can’t enter a church and say the people there that are speaking in tongues are all speaking distinct languages that we just don’t know. People who speak in tongues don’t know what they say, their minds are at rest that moment and their spirit is talking. It conveys their thought and needs to God directly, in a way they don’t know how to.
and I don’t think you really understand the topic and the different conclusions, so I suggest you read it again before you think that what your saying is the truth.
and I don’t get… another gospel? Are you a Christian?
You are not correct by saying only God understands the earthly language you speak but I don’t understand. To speak in tongues is real and it is to speak by the spirit. HOW WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO ME ” HOW DO YOU WALK IN THE SPIRIT”?
and nobody say your tongues MUST be interpreted. WHAT DOES 1 CORINTHIANS 12 MEAN ? 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
it is not an earthly language that we just do not know, all languages spoken currently on earth are learnt you can’t enter a church and say the people there that are speaking in tongues are all speaking distinct languages that we just don’t know. People who speak in tongues don’t know what they say, their minds are at rest that moment and their spirit is talking. WERE IN THE WORD OF GOD DOES IT SAY THAT ONE THAT SPEAKS IN TONGUES THEIR MINDS ARE AT REST THAT MOMENT AND THEIR SPIRIT IS TALKING? WHO IS SPEAKING THEIR OWN SPIRIT OR THE HOLY SPIRIT? It conveys their thought and needs to God directly, in a way they don’t know how to. WERE IN THE WORD OF GOD DOES IT SAY THAT WE CONVEY OUR THOUGHTS AND NEEDS TO GOD DIRECTLY, IF ONE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE PRAYING. WHY DID JESUS GIVES US THE LORDS PRAY? WOULD SATAN BE ABLE TO HEAR THEIR PRAYS??
and I don’t think you really understand the topic and the different conclusions, so I suggest you read it again before you think that what your saying is the truth.
and I don’t get… another gospel? Are you a Christian? SAYING YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN, DOES NOT SAVE YOU. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
CAN I ASK YOU A FEW QUESTION?
Why do you want to speak in tongues? To please God or get closer to him?
Are tongue speakers more spiritual than the ones that do not have that gift?
HOW MANY TIMES DID THEY SPEAK IN TONGUES IN THE BIBLE? HOW MANY YEARS APART WAS IT?
Some understand praying in tongues to be a “secret code language” that prevents Satan and his demons from understanding our prayers and thereby gaining an advantage over us. This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons:
1) The New Testament consistently describes tongues as a human language. It is unlikely that Satan and his demons are unable to understand human languages.
2) The Bible records countless believers praying in their own language, out loud, with no concern of Satan intercepting the prayer. Even if Satan and/or his demons hear and understand the prayers we pray, they have absolutely no power to prevent God from answering the prayers according to His will. We know that God hears our prayers, and that fact makes it irrelevant whether Satan and his demons hear and understand our prayers.
What, then, is praying in tongues, and how is it different than speaking in tongues?
First Corinthians 14:13-17 indicates that praying in tongues is also to be interpreted. As a result, it seems that praying in tongues was offering a prayer to God. This prayer would minister to someone who spoke that language, but would also need to be interpreted so that the entire body could be edified.
This interpretation does not agree with those who view praying in tongues as a prayer language.
This alternate understanding can be summarized as follows: praying in tongues is a personal prayer language between a believer and God (1 Corinthians 13:1) that a believer uses to edify himself (1 Corinthians 14:4).
This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons:
1) How could praying in tongues be a private prayer language if it is to be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:13-17)?
2) How could praying in tongues be for self-edification when Scripture says that the spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church, not the self (1 Corinthians 12:7).
3) How can praying in tongues be a private prayer language if the gift of tongues is a “sign to unbelievers” (1 Corinthians 14:22)? 4) The Bible makes it clear that not everyone possesses the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:11, 28-30). How could tongues be a gift for self-edification if not every believer can possess it? Do we not all need to be edified?
IF ALL OTHER FALSE RELIGIONS THAT DO NOT WORSHIP JESUS ALSO, SPEAK THE SAME TONGUES AS CHRISTIANS DO. SHOULD WE NOT BE CAREFUL IN WHAT WE DO? COULD ONE BE CAUSING GOD??
What do we say, then, about the many Christians who have experienced praying in tongues and find it to be very personally edifying? First, we must base our faith and practice on Scripture, not experience. We must view our experiences in light of Scripture, not interpret Scripture in light of our experiences.
Lastly why are churches teaching people how to speak in tongues, prophecy and heal. I thought the gifts were from the Holy Spirit and the Spirit gave it to whom he felt AND NOT A LEARNT BEHAVIOR?
Yes, Speaking in tongues may also be speaking in earthly languages that were never learnt, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is a gift from God that your spirit uses to communicate with Him.
Why did Jesus teach us to pray, teach, communicate, heal …. in our own language ( nothing secret ) ?? i am sure that Satan could understand all heavenly languages.
If tongues had to be interpreted in the church, then satan could also know what was said????
When you say you are not a believer, do you mean in tongues or in Jesus Christ?
I strive to believe as many true things as possible and so I seek the best possible evidence. When it comes to the various supernatural claims then for these I do not find enough evidence to convince me.
Faith is the only evidence you need. Read Hebrews 11.
Given the observation that you can have faith in anything, any position at all, then how exactly is faith in something “evidence” for that something?
It’s like saying faith is the only proof you need that everything is fine (if you prayed about an issue) and when it’s the right time, what you asked God for will be provided. You can never fully understand God or His plans. (Isaiah 55:8-11). And I know sometimes and in some situations having faith in God may sound absurd but He knows what’s best.
You have faith in God, not in something and having faith in God is evidence that your prayers will be answered but at the right time because God knows what is best. I know sometimes (and in some situations) having faith in God may seem absurd, but God always knows what is best for us (Isaiah 55:8-11).
Thanks for your artical . I am a believer in the word of God and lately been questioning the gift of tongues being used in the church today. This babble, gibberish kind of tongue. From my early Christian life it has been around me and other believers have tried to push this on me and go as far as claiming if I don’t have this gift, then I am not filled with the Spirit. I believe now that this gift was used in the early church to manifest God to unbelievers and it was an actual language that people could understand if they were of a different speaking language where the truth of Christ was being preached. After the Bible was completed, this gift ceased. Now if course, the word of God can be translated in many languages all over the world. I am writing you to encourage you to keep the faith in God’s wonderful gift of salvation. Don’t let man’s interpretation of God’s will and whas fog your faith.
What Cheryl said: “I believe now that this gift was used in the early church to manifest God to unbelievers and it was an actual language that people could understand if they were of a different speaking language where the truth of Christ was being preached.”
What the Bible says: For he who speaks in a tongue DOES NOT SPEAK TO MEN but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:2
Who will you believe?
See the explanations below for a discussion on 1 Cor. 14:2 with respect to real language.
You’re sort of describing the classic scenario for ‘tongues’ – yes, you will hear a great deal of repetition; that’s very characteristic of ‘tongues speech’ – the repetition of syllables. It sounds a bit lyrical because, unlike English, the typical syllable structure is ‘open’, that is, the structure is ‘consonant-vowel-consonant-vowel, CVCVCV’, etc. This type of structure and the fact that the sounds being produced are the ones that require the least amount of physiological effort are what lend to the sometimes sing-song/lyrical quality to tongues speech.
An elevated level of stress can induce tongue-speech – it’s, in part, a stress reliever.
Tongues in most cultures/spiritual paths that use them are a tool for establishing a closer relationship with the divine. What you describe is rather typical of the phenomenon.
The “tongues experience” is real and for many it can be quite a powerful one, but the tongues themselves are entirely self-produced.
There’s really no such thing as real/false tongues – random free vocalization is random free vocalization; there’s nothing to fake.
I don’t know about the people you tested, but I do know I didn’t learn it. I can also hear a repetition sometimes as if it was a song as well as having inflections and being lyrical. I don’t do it much, and have been surprised that at a very stressful time when I intended to pray aloud in english, I was taken by surprise when tongues poured out instead. Also while speaking or praying, a well of emotion I was unprepared for or expected surfaces and it is like coming from some deep reserve within me.
When this occurs, there is a sensation of having connected and communicated with God. And since it’s God’s Spirit within, why wouldn’t it be universal and not limited to just Christians if He is God of all. To me that’s more evidence of the reality of tongues and of God. Furthermore, I suspect you never actually spoke, sang or prayed in real tongues, but false tongues you tried to emulate.
Hi Lisa,
I have a couple of questions if that’s OK with you.
Q1. How do you know that you did not simply pick it up naturally by being in the environment where it happens?
As an example of what I mean … if you hear me speak, then you will detect a distinct accent. It tells you immediately where I come from (or where I live). I did not learn this accent, or even make a conscious decision to acquire it. There are many things that we pickup like this … how we behave, how we choose to dress, the words we use, etc… so how do you eliminate this as an explanation?
Q2. What does the term “real tongues” mean and how does it differ from what you consider to be “false tongues”?
If indeed people can and do acquire the ability to speak in tongues quite naturally and as part of the process it invokes emotions and feelings, yet they also don’t actually believe in anything supernatural, or even hold any specific religious beliefs, then how do you differentiate between these categories? Is it in any way meaningful to prefix it with the words “real” or “fake”?
HI lisa
How did you get to know about speaking in tongues?
What made you want to speak in tongues?
Were you told that whoever believes can do what the apostles did Mark 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.” 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.…
IF YOU CAN SPEAK IN TONGUES THEN YOU CAN DO ALL THE ABOVE, HAVE YOU GOT THE GIFT OF HEALING? CAN YOU WALK INTO ANY HOSPITAL AND HEAL PEOPLE LIKE THE APOSTLES DID? IF NOT WHY NOT, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO ALL THAT JESUS SAID ONE CAN DO?
1 Coríntios 2:14-16
For the natural man is not able to take in the things of the Spirit of God: for they seem foolish to him, and he is not able to have knowledge of them, because such knowledge comes only through the Spirit. But he who has the Spirit, though judging all things, is himself judged by no one. For who has knowledge of the mind of the Lord, so as to be his teacher? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 14:22
“Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not”
Hi Dave
Who were the sign gifts for?
Exodus 4:7-9 Moses first SIGN FOR THE JEWS .. rod to serpent and hand to leper … 10 plagues leaving Egypt…. SIGN FOR THE JEWS and Greek require knowlwdge
was it not for the Jews? The nation of Israel always required a sign.
Mark 16: 14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who [d]believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[e] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Read the whole chapter ,,, who were the unbelievers? The Apostles themselves? Who had to believe that the sign gifts would happen? The Apostles
2 Corinthians 14 ….. for the SIGN GIFTS were for the unbelieving Jews,
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. SIGNS OF THE APOSTLES NOT OURS,
,,,,,,,
Hi Mario,
I have a question.
Countless numbers of people read the bible. As they do so they glean an understanding from that. We know that there is a vast diversity of conclusions given the vast diversity of beliefs that exist. This diversity of understanding is not just random, but often is by people who dedicate their lives to their specific variation of belief.
You have specific beliefs and will of course happily quote references for it, so my question is this. How do you know that your specific interpretation is correct?
I do of course understand that you believe it is, and of course I also understand that you are confident that it is. In a world where many will read the exact same texts and reach completely different conclusions, what is the mechanism you use to determine that your specific conclusions are the correct ones, and how do you verify that it is correct?
Dave
Hi Dave,
I have a question.
VERY GOOD QUESTION. I BELIEVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL REVEAL THE TRUTH OF GODS WORD AS YOU STUDY AND READ THE INSPIRED OF GOD YOURSELF AND RELY ON THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GUILD YOU. IN GENERAL WE ARE LAZY AND ACCEPT EVERY THING A PASTOR OR EVANGELIST SAYS. WHY SHOULD WE DO THIS ? REMEMBER WHEN YOU WERE AT SUNDAY SCHOOL, ONE WAS TAUGHT ADAM AND EVE EAT AN APPLE, DELILAH CUT SAMSON’S HAIR AND THE ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK TWO BY TWO. ALL SOUNDS SO TRUE EVEN ADULTS TODAY BELIEVE THIS, BUT I AM SURE YOU KNOW THAT ITS ALL FALSE.
“Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15 )
Does the Bible contain some difficult passages? Yes. Are they unresolvable? No. Whenever a critic or sincere believer comes across an alleged Bible difficulty, it has always been answered. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness …” (1 Timothy 3:16)
Countless numbers of people read the bible. As they do so they glean an understanding from that. We know that there is a vast diversity of conclusions given the vast diversity of beliefs that exist. This diversity of understanding is not just random, but often is by people who dedicate their lives to their specific variation of belief. YES I AGREE
Think of it this way. In every trial, the defense, the prosecution, and each member of the jury all have an equal opportunity to examine the facts. Each of these parties may see those facts from a different angle. But in the final analysis there is only one truth about what really happened. A similar observation applies here.
You have specific beliefs and will of course happily quote references for it, so my question is this. How do you know that your specific interpretation is correct?
GOD HAS SHOWN ME THROUGH HIS GRACE THAT WHEN I HEAR CERTAIN SERMONS OR HEAR OF HEALINGS AND MIRACLES THAT ARE NOT ACCORDING TO THE TRUTH AS PRESENTED IN THE BIBLE, I THEN FURTHER READ THE WORD AND OTHER VERSIONS OF THE WORD AND AS ONE READS THE WORD ONE’S EYES ARE OPENED AND ONE SEE THE TRUE MEANING.
I do of course understand that you believe it is, and of course I also understand that you are confident that it is. In a world where many will read the exact same texts and reach completely different conclusions,
YES BUT UNFORTUNATELY AS YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE MANY FALSE TEACHER’S, PROPHETS AND PASTORS THAT ACTUALLY KNOW THE CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE BUT TWIST IT FOR THERE OWN GAIN. THIS LIKE SUNDAY SCHOOL THE PEOPLE A LIE AND AS THEY SAY A LIE TOLD OVER AND OVER AGAIN BECOMES THE TRUTH TO THE PERSON.
what is the mechanism you use to determine that your specific conclusions are the correct ones, and how do you verify that it is correct?
LOTS OF WHAT IS ON YOU TUBE AND BOOKS WRITTEN BY PEOPLE ARE WRITTEN WITH THE MINDSET OF WHAT THEY WERE TAUGHT OR THEIR TRADITION OR THEIR UPBRINGING, WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT IF IT’S RIGHT OR WRONG.
WE HAS TO TEST ALL THINGS, THAT MEANS WHEN ONE GETS A DIFFICULT OR HEARS OTHERS PEOPLES MEANINGS OF THE SAME SCRIPTURES, ONE HAS TO EXAMINE FOR HIMSELF AND LET THE HOLY SPIRIT GUILD US TO THE TRUTH.
Dave we are not perfect but its amazing just like when you are about to sin, you get that small voice which gives you the opportunity to sin or not. The choice becomes yours.
IF WE LIVE A LIFE WITH ALL THESE SO CALLED VARIOUS VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE IT MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT TO DIFFERENTIATE THE TRUTH FROM THE LIES. WE HAVE TO DEPEND ON THE HOLY SPIRIT, TO SHOW US THE TRUTH IN THE WORD.
Mario
I always wondered if speaking in tongues originally wasn’t simply people preaching in a language the speaker knew, but the audience didn’t know. Sort of “Look, we appreciate your enthusiasm, but we think it would really work better if people understood what you’re saying.”
The first norwegian missionary til Greenland, Hans Egede (1686-1758) is indeed rumoured to have been speaking to hghe native inuits for hours in danish, without anyone understanding what he was saying. He used years before his first baptism, because he wasnt sure they understood what his teaching was. He ended as bisjop of Greenland, and hopefully learned their language…
Thank you so much for helping me understand ,that is pretty much what I thought
As I understand it, speaking in tongues is supposed to be simply a miraculous ability to speak a previously unlearned foreign language, and because its a miracle it is supposed to convince skeptics that God exists. But every time this miracle is tested under controlled conditions it is found that no foreign language is being spoken, its just jibberish., to which the tongue talkers say, “oh it must be a heavenly language”. Give me a break! That means its 100% unfalsifiable.
I love how these science and biology-illiterate theists post their own personal experience about the time they were worked up into a psychological frenzy and out of control…. which is how they know exactly what it is. And despite the fact it occurs in multiple religions and can be replicated by non-believers. They’ve literally admitted that they were not in their right mind, and therefore their recollection, interpretation and understanding cannot be trusted. Aside from this, we have absolutely no independent access to the events, it’s just what they want to tell us, based on the unreliable memory of a person essentially having a seizure, with no corroboration or substantiation – and we are supposed to believe it as described? No. That’s not how it works. Let’s take someone having an epileptic seizure and put them in a position to witness a crime. Now, let’s see how their eyewitness account turns out. It’s simple neurochemicals, but unfortunately science-illiterate theists insist that everything they don’t have the education to understand must be one of the various “gods” – none of which they’ve even substantiated, so attributing it to something that isn’t demonstrated to exist is putting the cart before the horse. It’s no less reasonable for me to attribute it to the invisible unicorns firing their Happy Chatter ray-gun on you; indeed, it makes more sense, given that the unicorns don’t care about religion, which is why the phenomenon spans and manifests many beliefs as well as non-belief. Or, maybe it’s just Odin, trying to get you on the path to Valhalla. I mean, can you prove it’s not Old Norse? Didn’t think so.
@tgbx: There is no seizure and usually no “frenzy/out of control” connected to tongues. However, it (supposedly) changing the state of the brain, saying it a bit naively and speculatively, from a “left hemisphere”-dominated mode to a “right hemisphere”-dominated mode, entering creative and symbolic realms of thinking. Solutions and insights that are inaccessible in everyday mode might emerge. Possibly connections to a spiritual realm open. Let’s liken it to alternate states reached through meditation or shamanism (although I have no experience with either of them).
What is more relevant than the interpretation of tongues “as heavenly languages from God” is the way it is used in the Christian contexts and the effects it is having on peoples lives (see witnesses in other comments).
Tongues is a real gift from God I am a witness. An elderly American woman praying in tongues in our prayer group was heard by a Philipino woman in the group speaking her language. The American lady had never been to the Philippines nor did she know the language. The Philipino lady gave us the translation of what she was praying for which was a woman who was desperate and wanted to kill her children then herself. Two weeks later a woman was brought to our church by a church member who had met her in a grocery store. The church member saw her struggle and helped her pay for her groceries. So she invited her to church and gave her a ride there. The visitor broke down after service and cried uncontrollably. We prayed a long time for her and once she calmed down we asked her to tell us what she was feeling. She said she had been thinking of killing herself and her children but now she knew God was real and she was gonna be okay. So she gave her heart to Him.
The elderly lady has since passed on but the Philipino lady is still alive and the other witnesses to this amazing story. It is true.
This is not the only story like this I have heard many. It happens all the time. Your scientific research has not gone very far at all.
My good friend. I find it interesting that with one broad brush stoke you have dismissed speaking in tongues because of your personal experience backed up with dubious scientific research that is merely sampling. If I went to Africa and tasted the food available there and through my own experience concluded that it tasted very bland, I could return to America and convince those who trust me that the food is tasteless. On the other hand if I was to bring someone from Africa to my home and feed them they would comment that the food was prepared well but did not compare to the delicious flavours at home. Yes this did happen. So what do we conclude? Bias my good friend based on sampling. Unfortunately, sampling may have some value but to draw conclusions from random samplings and conclude that all speaking in tongues is ipso facto phycological babble is to miss the entire point. It is a mystery my dear friend and apparently your rejection of it proves that in fact you never did have it and your experience was based on phyco babble. John tells us that those who leave the faith prove they were never with us. Is this a circular argument? Yes, but it proves that if your faith is shaken to the point of leaving you never did have authentic faith because authentic faith would stand against all storms because it is a spiritual mystery, but at the same time is not gullible. It is unfortunate in our modern age that Christianity is to be scientific, which is usually simple bias mascaraing as logic, instead of being left as a spiritual mystery. I agree with your conclusion that many if not most who speak in tongues are being fooled, but it can also be authentic and you my good companion are not the arbitrator of what is authentic and what is not by your lack of authenticity and biased scientific sampling. You might want to find the authentic and then you could tell the difference. Perhaps you might want to rewrite this blog with a little less bias and a little more insight.
Hi Jim,
How do you work out when it is supernatural and truly authentic, and when it is fake and people are simply fooling themselves?
Dave
I’m a born again Christian, my therapist and I talk about speaking in tongues, I agree some do it and it’s not the Spirit, however studies done on the brain show that werew not in control, I myself have had something so powerful come over me I can’t control it and I speak in tongues that I can’t even try to repeat, there is power there God Bless
I’m a born again Christian, my therapist and I talk about speaking in tongues, I agree some do it and it’s not the Spirit,
HOW CAN ONE TELL IF ITS NOT THE SPIRIT? WHICH SPIRIT IS IT? OR CAN IT BE A LEARNT BEHAVIOR ?
however studies done on the brain show that were not in control
THESE TESTS PROVE WHAT? THAT THE PERSON WAS NOT IN CONTROL,DOES THE BIBLE NOT SAY WE MUST BE IN CONTROL ALWAYS, IF THE PERSON WAS NOT IN CONTROL (WHAT WAS CONTROLLING HIS MIND? GODS SPIRIT OR ANOTHER SPIRIT ? YOU WOULD NOT KNOW AS YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. COULD YOU BE WORSHIPING OR CAUSING GOD? YOU WOULD NOT KNOW,
I myself have had something so powerful come over me I can’t control it and I speak in tongues that I can’t even try to repeat, there is power there
WHAT WAS TONGUES FOR? WHY DO YOU SPEAK IN TONGUES? HOW CAN ONE LET UNKNOWN POWERS COME INTO ONES BODY.
WHATS YOUR REASON FOR WANTING TO SPEAK IN TONGUES
God Bless
Should have added to the above –
Thus, the results are more or less what one would expect; i.e. language producing centers of the brain not overly active in the production of “tongues”.
I know this an older post. But I’m doing some research on speaking in tongues. I’m hoping you may have a response to this you tube video.
http://youtu.be/NZbQBajYnEc
Thanks for your input.
I’m pretty sure that this was commented on in the thread below, but I would argue that the study is somewhat inconclusive and can be skewed to support either a ‘pro’ or ‘con’ argument.
For me, the reason the language producing centers of the brain are not overly engaged in the production of “tongues”/glossolalia is simply because it’s not language; it’s non-cognitive non-language utterance, essentially random free vocalization (random, but limited to the constraints of phonemic inventory of the speaker),so, there’s no need for the language producing centers to be overly active.
Reply ↓
Marchello
A major point my friend Mario keeps missing is: ‘what is the fruit of this tongue speaking’? WAS IT LAUGHTER, CRYING FOR SHOUTING FOR JOY, ….And for me receiving the Holy Spirit SO BY RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU MEAN THAT YOU RECEIVED THE SPIRIT BY THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES?? included healing from desires for drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, swearing, obsession with sex and basically a hedonistic lifestyle all replaced with an admiration and love for Jesus Christ and sharing his message of love and forgiveness and that the power of the Holy Spirit for the early believers is STILL AVAILABLE for ‘believers’ today. IS THE POWER YOU RECEIVE FROM SPEAKING IN TONGUES ? It is a BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT to say that His (Jesus) working in/with me is actually Satan. WELL YOU KNOW THAT TONGUES ARE FROM GOD, OR COUNTERFEIT FROM SATAN OR IT MAY JUST BE A LEARNT BEHAVIOR. TRY DIFFERENTIATING THEM, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE FALSE, THE TRUE AND THE LEARNT TONGUES. But hey even Jesus himself was accused of being in league with Satan by the religious types of his day. So we pray for them for ‘Father they know not what they are doing.’ YES WE DO PRAY FOR PEOPLE THAT DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TONGUES, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT ARE TAUGHT THAT THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS THAT THEY ARE BORN AGAIN AND ARE SPIRIT FILLED.
God has equipped humans with a great range of emotions so we shouldn’t be afraid of joy or sadness in our lives or experiences with God/Holy Spirit/Jesus Christ. We are humans not robots (not yet anyway). Remember King David let it all hang out as he danced and sang on his way back to Israel with the ark. And I do think emotions were running high on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out. There would have been great joy and laughter I believe. Of course Paul warned that the church meetings should be done decently and in order but we also have to be careful that we don’t completely sterilize the emotions of receiving/walking in the Holy Spirit. A major point my friend Mario keeps missing is: ‘what is the fruit of this tongue speaking’? And for me receiving the Holy Spirit included healing from desires for drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, swearing, obsession with sex and basically a hedonistic lifestyle all replaced with an admiration and love for Jesus Christ and sharing his message of love and forgiveness and that the power of the Holy Spirit for the early believers is STILL AVAILABLE for ‘believers’ today. It is a BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT to say that His (Jesus) working in/with me is actually Satan. But hey even Jesus himself was accused of being in league with Satan by the religious types of his day. So we pray for them for ‘Father they know not what they are doing.’
Bergoglio is such eternal blasphemer, cause Bergoglio said “devil and serpent” against jesus Christ!
Jorge Bergoglio is such eternal blasphemer, cause Bergoglio said “devil and serpent” against Jesus Christ!
I’m a highly sensitive person and was diagnosed at 18 as clinically depressed. I was raised Catholic and have been to friends churches where they practiced tounges but it scared me it wasn’t something common for me to see. During one night alone in bed crying feeling at an all time low I started speaking tounges. It was as if it bursted from my mouth I was laughing and crying and had no idea what was coming out of my mouth but it just kept flowing out. Afterwards I felt at peace but kind of scared at what just happened.That was the only time it has ever happened. They say when you’re at your lowest is when you are closest to God and I truley believe that.
Hi Amanda
One not go by experiences, feelings and emotions. WHY because the change all the time and you will act differently at different times.
What did you get out of that experience?
What did the tongues do for you?
Did you understand them? Is there an example in the bible that made the people that spoke in tongues, cry and laugh at something that is supposed to glorify and praise God.
One must aware that there are false tongues and true tongues.
One should be careful wanting to do or doing what other people do, without knowing the subject matter.
God is always with you, he lives in you, you can not get closer or further away from God.
other comments appreciated
to aaquadrat
So if Roman Catholics really praise God from within the heart and their inner intent to praise GOD but through the Apostles and the virgin Mary, they also now speak in tongues. NOW ACCORDING TO YOU GOD SEES THEIR HEART So God WILL ACCEPT THEIR INNER INTENT TO WORSHIP HIM,
iF THAT is CORRECT IF ONE THINKS ALL gODS LEAD TO SALVATION, God will accept all their prays as their inner intent is to worship a GOD?
Ignore capitals please
I disagree with tongues not being real. I am a highly educated woman who studied psychology of religion and also experimente with concepts such as gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have spoken in tongues. In one case I started speaking in tongues and was curious about what language I was speaking in. To my shock I found a book called the 100 names of Allah and
discovered those prhases in the dictionary in the back. I was essentially saying Halleluah! in old Aramaic and the phrase was “Alleluah! Alleluah! (sp) All of creation says that!” Meaning all of God’s creatures are glad to be alive and praise the Lord for that. Another time when I was speaking, the same book helped me understand why I was saying Mount Tabor over and over again. That mount is in the Judeo Christian Bible. These experiences and Ken Wilbur’s comments on tongues in some of his books helped me understand that what is being dealt with here is the psychospiritual aspect of human beings, human bodies. And indeed much of the interpretation of the Bible and probably other scriptures is about that–proper interpretation, that is.
I disagree with tongues not being real. WHAT ARE THE BIBLE VERSES THAT YOU ARE USING THAT DETERMINES IN YOUR MIND THAT TONGUES ARE REAL. I am a highly educated woman who studied psychology of religion and also experimente with concepts such as gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have spoken in tongues. DO YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE REAL HOLY SPIRIT TONGUES AND THERE IS COUNTERFEIT TONGUES ( FAKE TONGUES) In one case I started speaking in tongues and was curious about what language I was speaking in. SO THE HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT GIVE YOU THE INTERPRETATION, HOW LONG AFTER YOU SPOKE IN TONGUES DID YOU EVENTUALLY GET TO SEE THE PHRASES IN THE BOOK ? To my shock I found a book called the 100 names of Allah and discovered those prhases in the dictionary in the back. I was essentially saying Halleluah! SO THE WHOLE TIME YOU SPOKE IN TONGUES YOU REPEATED THE SAME PHRASE OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND ALL IT MEANT WAS HALLELUAH? SO YOU WERE IN ACTUAL FACT SAYING “PRAISE THE LORD” OVER AND OVER AGAIN in old Aramaic and the phrase was “Alleluah! Alleluah! (sp) All of creation says that!” Meaning all of God’s creatures are glad to be alive and praise the Lord for that. Another time when I was speaking, the same book helped me understand why I was saying Mount Tabor over and over again. DID YOU ACTUALLY SAY MOUNT TABOR OVER AND OVER AGAIN, SO IT WAS NOT A HEAVENLY LANGUAGE BUT YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE SAYING That mount is in the Judeo Christian Bible. These experiences and Ken Wilbur’s comments on tongues in some of his books helped me understand that what is being dealt with here is the psychospiritual aspect of human beings, human bodies. And indeed much of the interpretation of the Bible and probably other scriptures is about that–proper interpretation, that is. SO NOW YOU ARE GOING BY KEN WILBUR’S COMMENTS, WHY NOT READ THE BIBLE YOURSELF AND SEE IF WHAT YOU ARE DOING, SHOW US IN THE SCRIPTURES WHY YOU ARE SPEAKING IN UNKNOWN TONGUES THAT COULD BE CURSING GOD OR BE EARTHLY LANGUAGES.
WOULD YOU NOT BE CONCERNED IF YOU MAY BE CURSING GOD?
In fact, no. I would not be concerned if someone interpreted my utterances as “cursing God” when my deepest intention was to praise him or be near to him. Doesn’t the Bible over and over stress that God sees beyond the appearance and looks into the heart? E.g. doesn’t he reveal to Samuel in 1 Samuel 16,7 “Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”
What is your image of God? Are you arguing from a fear-based conception of God?
Well said.
My adult daughter enter into a pentecostal revival church. She really thinks she was lead from God to join this group. They believe all members have the gifts of tongues.
Many years ago i was caught up into this and i am grateful that I fell out of this. It was too emotional and draining. It unsettled my true spirit.
My question is.. how can i saved my daughter from being mislead. My wish is to have my real daughter back. Her real self.
I trried to talk with her but we always argue. Now, I dont bring up the topic and I hope she wakes up to the truth.
Your advise is much appreciate
Thank you
Your daughter has a basic human right to follow whichever religion she chooses. If she was living a homosexual life and you disagreed would you post online that you want her to stop? hmmm
Reply ↓
Marchello
February 22, 2018 at 11:22
I agree with you we could debate for the next generation, but one is for sure Gods Word. Many people have come and gone with their theories and different movements throughout the centuries.
But have you read the Word for yourself, Acts and Corinthians. By reading the Word yourself without the influence of all these comments which at first you thought it to be true and later you see that it was false doctrine.
Lets stick to the gospel, Christ came as a human, baptized by John the Baptist, shared his blood on the cross and was raised from the death and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Experiences, feeling and emotions can lead us astray but by Grace though Faith we can stand for righteousness
If tounges were real I would like to see a group of speakers simultaneously utter the same syllables in their unknown language. As a practitioner who has paced prayer rooms with dozens of fellow tounge talkers I can accurately say this never happens. Another good test would be to have two interpreters in separate rooms after a tounge message is given separately and compare the interpretation. If the same interpretation were given then that would be significant. But I suspect the two interpretations given by the spirit would be radically different.
Doug, what do you mean by “tongues were real”? They are real. But with near certainty they are not languages in the sense of human languages with grammar, vocabulary etc. There are gazillian forms of expression and communication that do not involve full-fledged human languages.
If the Pentecostal church members often speak in tongues then why is it never done in Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, and many other mainstream churches?
APART FROM PENTECOSTALS THESE OTHER RELIGIONS ALSO SPEAK IN TONGUES
WHY DO THE TONGUES SOUND THE SAME AS PAGAN BELIEVERS
TONGUES SPEAKERS ALSO INCLUDE
Assemblies of God, United Pentecostal Church International, Church of God (Cleveland), The Salvation Army, and the Greek Orthodox Church.
Buddhism, Hinduism
Major World Religions
Muslims
The Church of Jesus Christ
Church of Jesus Christ Christ of Latter Day Saints
North Borneo priestesses chant incantations to a Gusi in a language of the spirit world.
In Micronesia and the Solomon Islands, priests and priestesses open themselves to having spirits speak through them in the language of the spirit world,
Yanagide of Moji City and the Zar cult in Ethiopia, practice speaking in tongues.
Like shamans, practitioners of voodoo speak in tongues during their rituals.
The Quillancinga and Pasto groups of the Andes tribes recite prayers in unknown languages during healing as well.
COULD THE ESTIMATED 100 MILLION TONGUE SPEAKERS TODAY BE WRONG ????
TONGUES EXISTED 100 OF YEARS BEFORE THE PENTECOSTAL TONGUES TODAY
Tongues as we see it today did not come about as a result of studying the Bible. It just out of the blue happened. It should be of extreme concern to all Christians, because as already shown, it is not uniquely a Christian practice by any means. Various studies have revealed that speaking in tongues is present in non-Christian religions all around the world. It is practiced in China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Siberia, Arabia, Burma, and Arctic regions just to name a few. Glossolalia is found among the Eskimos, Japanese séances in Hokkaido, in a small cult led by Genji Yanagide of Moji City, the shamans in Ethiopia in the zar cult and various spirits in Haitian Voodoo and is also found extensively in African tribal religions.
WHO HAS THE COUNTERFEIT ?
As this discussion continues into another year of circular arguments ‘for’ and ‘against’ tongues its important to note that some commentators come from a dead form of Christianity known as ‘cessationism’. These are so called Christians who the Bible warns about ‘having a form of godliness but deny the power thereof’. In Jack Deere’s intriguing book, Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, he suggests the following hypothetical situation and result: “If you were to lock a brand-new Christian in a room with a Bible and tell him to study what the Scriptures have to say about healing and miracles, he would never come out of the room a cessationist.”
Hi Marchello
In Jack Deere’s intriguing book, Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, he suggests the following hypothetical situation and result: “If you were to lock a brand-new Christian in a room with a Bible and tell him to study what the Scriptures have to say about healing and miracles, he would never come out of the room a cessationist.” BEING LOCKED IN A ROOM WITH THE BIBLE WOULD HE START SPEAKING IN TONGUES AND HEAL PEOPLE AND SEE MIRACLES?
Hi Mario
As I said, and it’s rather boring now, these arguments will no doubt continue for years to come! lol
I’ve previously provided you with information from Church history involving famous Christians and Holy Ghost Revivals that the dwindling number of cessationists must either ignore or attempt to rewrite to fit their heretical viewpoint.
The following is unashamedly copied and pasted from http://pneumareview.com/answering-the-cessationists-case-against-continuing-spiritual-gifts
“Many good books have been produced showing the frequent outbreak of miracles and spiritual gifts throughout church history (See also the excellent series by Richard Riss entitled “Tongues and Other Miraculous Gifts from the 2nd to 19th Centuries” which appeared in the first five issue of the Pneuma Review, Fall 1998 (Vol 1 No 1) through Fall 1999 (Vol 2, No 4)).
We will offer only three seldom-quoted examples of many hundreds available. Chapter 22 of St. Augustine’s City of God is devoted to the story of how Augustine himself became a full blown “charismatic” after being a bit of a theological cessationist.
He repudiates his previous position, and provides examples of over seventy miracles he recorded in and around his churches. Augustine complains in section 22,8 that contemporary miracles are relatively unknown not because they no longer occur, but simply because of bad communication and because people are conditioned to disbelieve them. Pope Gregory VI in writing about the successful evangelism of Britain enthused: “…great miracles imitate powers of the apostles in the signs they [perform].” Much later, Luther seems to have undergone a similar conversion to that of Augustine toward the end of his life.”
Mario, please apprise me of ANY cessationists held in higher esteem than Augustine or Luther in Christian history.
To all you readers, like it or not, spiritual gifts as mystifying and strange as they are, have always been part of the true Christian church from its birth at Pentecost through to today. Sure there have been cults and extreme unscriptural behavior (as with any religion) and people who lose their faith. But Charismatic Christianity has a well recorded history and none of you scientists and sceptics can change that. Go do some more research…
Marchello
I totally agree. I did not believe in God, did not attend Church, never read the Bible, Wanted to test God to see if He really existed, God seen my heart that l truly wanted to know the truth, and not being influenced by anyone at all. Said a simple prayer asking God to reveal Himself to me if He really existed, and l was immediately on my knees, speaking in tongues and singing in tongues for over an hour. The people who don’t believe in the gifts from The Holy Ghost will have their day to give an account, some tongues are not of this world but are meant for God’s ears to hear and understand. Also just to let you know l have spoke in fluent German that l have never been exposed to but a couple in church that came from Germany approached me and asked me how did l know what they were praying for and how was I speaking in their language as if l lived in the part of Germany they came from. I told them l had no clue what language l was speaking nor did l understand what l spoke. They both said it was a direct answer in our language to something we were praying about. They thanked me and l said it was my honor to serve The Lord and do His will. I’d be very careful knocking the gift given to Christians from The Holy Ghost, because you surely don’t want to commit the ONLY unpardonable sin, blasphemy of The Holy Ghost. Rather be safe than sorry for all eternity. Open your hearts and stop trying to stop people from receiving the gifts from The Holy Ghost of God. Every knee shall bow and every TONGUE shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, like it or not scientists and everyone else doing satans work. Amen. Let it be written and let it be done. You’ve been warned people
How do you know that you experienced something supernatural from a god, and did not simply subconsciously copy those around you in the church doing exactly the same?
Please also supply the contact details of this German couple so that we may independently interview them and verify this claim. Also advise on when this happened and where.
“test the spirits to see whether they are from God” – 1 John 4
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be
false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies…” —2nd Peter 2:1
Our fundamental Bible churches today are filled with ignorant believers who view Martin Luther as a great hero of the faith. Tragically, Martin Luther was a heretic! I realize this comes as a shock to many Christians; but, the proof is undeniable. The Biblical teaching of being saved by faith alone is often attributed to Martin Luther; BUT, nothing could be further from the truth.
Indeed, Luther and the other reformers did challenge the Catholic Church that sold indulgences and offered a “works-based” type of salvation. However, just because Martin Luther protested against the Catholic Church doesn’t mean that he was saved. Martin Luther often taught that salvation was based on faith alone, and not received based upon a person’s meritorious works; however, Luther’s idea of faith alone does not conform to the Biblical teaching that baptism is not required for salvation.
While it is understood that the opinions of men are in no way authoritative when it comes to God’s plan for salvation, it is nonetheless interesting to note that Martin Luther believed wholeheartedly in the necessity of water baptism as a prerequisite for salvation.
WHAT WOULD SAY TO THIS
Should we go by MAN or Gods word ?
Lets read what the word says on speaking in tongues. How many times did it occur in the Book of Acts? How many years apart sis it happened? Who required SIGNS?.
Reading about what most of you believe helps me understand how people can join a cult. I used to think wonder how people can be so clueless and just believe anything, but you all helped me understand how people, even today, can be followers and not even question anything. Do you really, truly believe in speaking in Tongue? I mean seriously? What about someone walking on water? Really? Or someone turning water into wine? I know of a lot of you probably want to so banks believe in something supernatural, it’s like the acient Greeks with their Greek gods, or natives with their multiple gods. I’m sure you all feel that is redicioulas to have a sun god or a moon god right….well what about worshipping to a person that supposedly could walk on water or rose from the dead. We are smarter people now days, we have all of this technology and knowledge at our fingertips. Educate yourselves from actual scientific facts, not what a book of rumors and stories that many many many people rewrote over time.the bible is like the exercise of telling one person a story, then they tell to the next person, who then tells the next and so on. The end result will be completely different p, with imbelishes and things added. That’s the bible.
Er, Dwight, it is not as simple. Science speaks about the repeatable, the laws that we perceive to hold categorically, like gravity etc. It does not make a statement about things that are not repeatable, like what a historic person did or could have done. It does not disprove that people rose from the dead. Even assuming the persistence of the physical laws at all times, it does not even exclude the possibility of raising from the dead, it might only assign it a low probability.
Wow, Dave first posted this in July 2010 and it has generated a great deal of passionate response. I just stumbled across it searching for relative information. Glad I did. It now gives me an opportunity to share my thoughts and experience. I am a practicing Christian. I was born and raised Catholic, and as a young adult gravitated to various Protestant denominational ideas, and ultimately pentecostalism where I too believed that tongues were actually being spoken, and that I too did on few occassions. Prayerfully, I asked God for guidance and wisdom on the matter that so many seem equally certain and confused about. And He provided as always reminding me that He is not the author of confusion. My belief therefore that tongues as practiced today in many churches has now changed. I do concur that most of it is intentional and self generated. I am still a believer in God and His word, and believe in the apostolic message of salvation, but speaking in tongues I have concluded is meaningless and is no indicator or proof that His Spirit has fallen on anyone save the early church following the upper room experience which had a supernatural utility and purpose. Believers and nonbelievers should pray for wisdom as I did. He will answer.
Mike – “I guess the Apostle Paul was deluded when he said that he was glad that he spoke more in tongues than others? Someone should have told him it was all in his mind and make believe.”
As someone already alluded to, Paul was, for his time anyway, a “world traveler”. He was most likely familiar with several languages; though quite frankly, he could have travelled just about anywhere in the Mediterranean basin knowing just two: Greek and Latin. He was simply stating that he was glad that he spoke more languages than most people he was addressing. Being multi-lingual would allow him to spread the message of Christianity to more people in their native language (or should I say – ‘native tongue’).
Carole – Some tongues (languages) are recognizable. My mum gave a message in tongues at a Sunday meeting and there were a couple who had lived in Africa, they said she had an African dialect. Tongues of angels and of men. One chap in our meeting, though not entirely all in the French language, gives messages in tongues and I recognize some words as French as I learned it at school.
Unfortunately, most accounts of tongues coming out as real language are all anecdotal at best. It is almost inevitable that if someone were producing random free vocalization, a few of their ‘words’ are going to be real words in a language spoken somewhere. That does not equate with that person being able to speak that language. If one of the syllables uttered were, say “apa” – it doesn’t mean anything in English, but I’d be willing to bet that it means something in probably several (if not more) real languages spoken somewhere.
Sort of something akin to the old saying, “sit 100 monkeys in front of 100 typewriters for 100 years and one will turn out the works of Shakespeare.”
There are just too many variables that could easily explain these situations. Did the couple from Africa simply state that what was being produced sounded like an African language or was an actual African language? i.e. did they recognize it as a real language (if so, which) or something that “sounded African”?
The person who mixed some French with his glossolalia – does anyone have any idea what his exposure has been to French? It’s not uncommon for people to include a few words in their “tongue” in a language they may be familiar with. There’s a great example that was recorded from a person from New Zealand who clearly used corrupted forms of several English words as well as a few Maori words in their glossolalia. Getting back to your example, why would there only be a few words in French? Why not the whole sequence? That just doesn’t stand to reason.
“Tongues of angels” as Paul uses it, is complete hyperbole. It was not ever meant literally.
The thing is, there are no two ‘tongues’ that will ever sound the same as they are based primarily upon the speaker’s own native language and typically contain a subset of sounds found in that language (no two speakers will ever use quite the same subset of sounds). In this sense, one could say that there are thousands of “tongues”, or just as many different ‘tongues’ as there are tongues-speakers. If indeed “tongues” were a heavenly language, why would there ever be need of more than one??
You’re totally wrong Kavik! Do you speak in tongues? I doubt it with what you’re saying. As I said to Mario ‘its better felt than telt’. I know some Pentecostal churches are way, way off the mark, which is a problem perhaps, though I’m blessed in going to a church that has sound doctrine and only preaches from the Bible, the true Word of God. My life changed for the better 38 years ago when I received the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues. At that time I felt like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders and the knot in my stomach was no more and I couldn’t wipe the smile off my dial for days. My experience hasn’t changed and, of course, we all have our problems at times, its part of life but I have the Lord now and I no longer rely on anything such as alcohol. The answer is ‘KISS’ ‘keep it simple stupid! John 3:3-8 ‘the Spirit breathes where it wills or wishes ‘pneuma = spirit’ where we get the Greek word pneumonia from. Simon the sorcerer (Acts 8:18) obviously saw or heard something as he thought he could buy the power – it was those that had received the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues that he actually heard. Mario, Acts 2:3 ‘cloven’ here means ‘to divide throughout’. I’m probably wasting my breath, so I’ll say cheers and I hope one day the Lord will reveal himself to you both BUT you have to seek Him first with a humble heart. Humbles yourselves under the mighty hand of God. I’ll say goodbye now. Carole
Respectfully, no, I don’t think so.
There are absolutely no references in the Bible with respect to “tongues” (read “languages”) that can not be explained in light of real language and what was happening both historically and culturally at that given time, whilst what modern tongue speakers are doing is easily explained in term of modern linguistics. There is no contradiction between ‘tongues’ and ‘real language’ in the Bible. The usage of ‘tongues’ makes it sound like something it simply is not; one of the pitfalls of using 17th century English in the 21st century.
Anyone can ‘speak in tongues’; it’s just random free-vocalization, non-cognitive non-language utterance. It’s a question of overcoming any ‘weirdness’ one may have/feel about playing with one’s language to begin producing the glossolalia. As a Linguist, I play with the sounds of language all the time, so in a sense, I “speak in tongues” almost every day.
Tongues as they are used today by Christian practitioners are a relatively recent phenomenon (to Christianity that is, certainly not to other cultures and religious paths).
Speakers will argue that the origin/reference is Biblical, but it simply is not.
James K.A. Smith in “Thinking in Tongues” (April, 2008) sums it up nicely where, in reference to the origins of modern tongues, he writes “The miraculous phenomena that manifested themselves at the Azusa Street revival, for example, compelled serious and sustained reflection. The events needed explanation (since it was painfully obvious that xenoglossy was not, as Parham fervently believed, what was happening), and the Pentecostal preachers and leaders turned to the resource that was most important to them: the narrative of Scripture. The resulting implicit theology was not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy but rather a synthesis trying to make sense of the experience in light of the narrative of Scripture.”
In short, looking for a way to legitimize what they were doing by ‘proofing‘ it in the Bible, despite the obvious absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues – call it what you will, but the result was a virtual re-definition of Scripture with respect to the understanding of “tongues” for this group of Christians.
I don’t know why there’s such an insistence on equating “tongue(s)” to something other than what the word actually means – a (real) language. Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians have to justify/legitimize/proof what they’re doing in light of Scripture. What they’re looking for though, just isn’t there; it never was. But without tongues, some Pentecostalism/Charismatic denominations fall rather flat; so what is in the Bible is reinterpreted to make what they are doing there.
As to benefits of ‘speaking in tongues’ such as you describe – this is no more different than the benefits one can derive from deep spiritual meditation or even religious chants. I totally agree that there are definite benefits in the practice, and it can certainly be argued that it is a way for the practitioner to establish a closer relationship with the divine, but whether tongues, chants or meditation, all are simply a tool by which to accomplish this.
Kavik writes:
Except for the first letter of Paul to the Corinthians.
Take chapter 12, 1-11: “Tongues” and their interpretation is conceived as a manifestation of the Spirit, and it is mentioned in one breadth with “message of wisdom”, “message of knowledge”, “faith”, “gifts of healing”, “miraculous powers”, “prophecy”, “distinguishing between spirits”. These are all spiritual and supernatural capabilities. Why would something mundane as speaking a foreign language end up in the same pot as “miraculous powers” or “prophecy”?
I can well consider glossolalia as something miraculous, since I cannot explain it in my everyday experiences, but why would I attribute spiritual powers to someone speaking in French to me?
Or take chapter 14, 2: “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no-one understands him”. If I speak French, surely someone can understand me. If I produce glossolalia instead, no one will understand me. So, what would Paulus likely refer to by “tongues” here?!
I can’t help but finding the assertion “tongue = foreign language” ridiculous. I’d put it in the corner of an ideological rationalization.
Except for the first letter of Paul to the Corinthians.
I have to disagree. Let me back up a second and preface this with the following:
Pentecostal and Charismatic ‘tongues-speakers’ look for Biblical references for what they are doing; however, they are simply not there. The resulting implicit theology is not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture.
In other words, a way to legitimize the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing‘ it in the Bible, despite the obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues – call it what you will, but the result was a virtual re-definition of Scripture with respect to the understanding/justification of modern “tongues” for this group of Christians.
One of the best examples of this is with Paul’s letter. There just isn’t anything there that can’t be explained in light of real language.
Take chapter 12, 1-11: “Tongues” and their interpretation is conceived as a manifestation of the Spirit, and it is mentioned in one breadth with “message of wisdom”, “message of knowledge”, “faith”, “gifts of healing”, “miraculous powers”, “prophecy”, “distinguishing between spirits”. These are all spiritual and supernatural capabilities. Why would something mundane as speaking a foreign language end up in the same pot as “miraculous powers” or “prophecy”?
That’s a good and fair question, and this is probably not the best way to answer; I know what I want to say, but it’s a matter of writing it so it makes some degree of sense, so at any rate…I wish I had some specific examples/references of this, but what has always struck me as sort of odd is that in many ancient cultures (particularly European and Middle Eastern it seems), the ability to be multi-lingual, to be able to speak, or translate, or write foreign languages, or any combination of the three, seems to have been looked upon or held in very high regard. A person who had a natural “knack” or ability for learning languages and did so (whether for the benefit of a particular king/ruler, his tribe, his people, whatever) was typically regarded with some degree of wonder and awe – their ability was often considered to be a ‘gift from the gods’. Again, I wish I had specific examples from different cultures and had a better understanding of why this was, but it seems to almost universal in areas where typically only one or two languages is spoken. It is quite possible that it is because a country’s or people’s language was oftentimes considered to be a gift from (the) God(s). It seems here, we are seeing the Hebrew/Jewish version of this concept; i.e. the ability to speak several languages regarded as a special gift bestowed upon humans by the divine.
The ability to be able to speak in various languages is said to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
People associate the term “spiritual gift” with it though, and the connotation/understanding is that it’s some sort of ability which is different from a natural ability/talent, which God gives someone when converted/saved. One didn’t have them prior to being saved, and then once saved, God gave them to him/her. All Charismatics would see them as obviously being supernatural in their manifestation.
Why, however, does any ability that God chooses to give us, particularly given for the intent of being used to better the church (as these 9 ‘gifts’ are), need to be considered extraordinary, miraculous, or almost required to be called supernatural?
Given the ordinary nature of most of these, why shouldn’t the ability in various languages be the bent/knack of some to ease the problem of communication in the church? These manifestations after all were given for the common good, not for some individualistic purpose.
It is better perhaps to see these ‘gifts’ as God-given natural abilities. Given, perhaps, with the intention that they are to be used for spreading or evidencing of His glory among people.
Further, you have to also keep in mind that ‘tongues’ as used in the Bible is nothing more than real human language(s).
With respect to language, any person who has a God-given ability to pick up foreign languages seemingly effortlessly can be said to have the “gift of tongues”. Just as anyone who has exceptionally keen insight may be said to have the “gift of prophecy”, a village/tribal elder steeped in knowledge, wisdom and lore, the “gift of wisdom”, etc.
So too could a person using a foreign language to administer to non-English speaking members of a congregation – perhaps stuck and struggling, not sure what or how to express a given topic, and draws on the H/S for inspiration, then suddenly starts speaking on the topic for an hour, very confident in what they’re saying. I would argue that this could also certainly be interpreted as the “gift of tongues”.
Again, the above is perhaps not the best way to put what I’m trying to say, but hopefully it makes some sense.
I can well consider glossolalia as something miraculous, since I cannot explain it in my everyday experiences, but why would I attribute spiritual powers to someone speaking in French to me?
I suspect many people may think the same way simply because they don’t really have an idea of what it is they’re doing or, perhaps better said, how they’re doing what they’re doing. Glossolalia can be relatively easily explained if one wishes to know what it is and how it’s produced, but I suspect many Christians who practice it would rather not be told.
Well, I don’t think anyone would. The purpose of this manifestation (i.e. people who had the ability/gift to learn languages quickly and easily) was for the church to encourage and evangelize people who spoke languages other than that spoken in a given church. In the case of Corinth, to gain converts from other parts of the world where Greek was not spoken via believers who spoke these languages.
Some would argue that the ‘gift of tongues’ entails that the language(s) in question would be instantly known by the speaker without having to learn them, but there’s no real evidence to suggest that.
Or take chapter 14, 2: “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no-one understands him”. If I speak French, surely someone can understand me. If I produce glossolalia instead, no one will understand me. So, what would Paulus likely refer to by “tongues” here?!
Many use 1 Cor. 14:2 as “proof” of tongues being spiritual language(s) – but upon closer examination, it simply describes real language, though a foreign one to the “hearers”. Note that, contrary to how some are taught to look at the passage, nowhere does it state that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying. It’s just not there.
To explain it further, if I attend a worship service in ‘East Haystack’, Alabama two things are going to be evident: one; there’s only going to be so many people at that service (i.e. there will be a finite given amount of people there) and two; the chances that anyone in East Haystack speaks anything but English is pretty slim to nil. If I start praying aloud in say Lithuanian, there’s no one at that service that’s going to understand a word I’m saying. Even though I’m speaking a real language, no one there will understand my “tongue”. That does not mean or imply that no one else understands Lithuanian; just no one at that particular service. So it ends up being a “real language no one understands” (within that given context). To the people listening to me, I am speaking ‘mysteries” in the Spirit (i.e. I’m praying earnestly from my heart and from deep within my being = praying ‘in the spirit’). Further, because no one else understands me, I am, in effect, praying just to God.
I can’t help but finding the assertion “tongue = foreign language” ridiculous. I’d put it in the corner of an ideological rationalization.
Not sure why this is difficult – the word ‘tongue’ (Gk. glossa) means ‘language’. The usage of ‘tongue’ in place of ‘language’ in many Bible translations is rather archaic, though we still use it today in certain expressions (e.g. we speak of someone’s native ‘tongue’). I think because ‘tongue’ is used instead of the more modern word ‘language’, people tend to associate it with something mysterious and something it never was.
I can well consider glossolalia as something miraculous, since I cannot explain it in my everyday experiences, but why would I attribute spiritual powers to someone speaking in French to me?
This may better explain my take on “spiritual gifts” –
Considering the fact Paul wrote three letters to three different groups of believers describing spiritual gifts and did not routinely repeat the same list of gifts, it’s probably safe to assume there are additional spiritual gifts unlisted in his writings.
I would,in fact, argue that for Christians, any natural God-given talent may be said to be a “spiritual gift” if used in the ministry of God. Paul describes nine specific ones in his letter to the church in Corinth that he felt were the most important to further the message of Christianity in that church and perhaps also in that area of the world.
The spiritual “gift of tongues” (read “manifestation of languages”) therefore is not just a knack/ability for learning languages easily than others, but more so, using that ability in spreading the message of Christianity and to the further glory of God.
The same may be said of the “gift of interpretation” (i.e. the translation of said languages)
Kavik, thanks for your answer. I am just incredibly mystified by your interpretation of 1st Corinthians. Let me quote some more verses which I think point to “tonges = glossolalia” rather than “tonges = foreign languages”.
Chapter 12, 10: “… to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.”
Speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues seem to be two different things. That does not make sense for natural languages. You can’t speak a language if you do not understand it, and vice versa.
However, you can produce glossolalia without understanding its meaning (if there should be a meaning). And you can be inspired by glossolalia to say something as its “interpretation”. Think of the string of sounds uttered in glossolalia as a “random seed” to trigger some thoughts/memories/imagination that are thought of as its “interpretation”. [Er, yes, I am computer scientist.]
Chapter 13, 1-2: “If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love … If I have the gift of prophecy…”
Again, like in Chapter 12, tongues is paralleled with prophecy, both intuitive (supernatural is debatable) rather than rational capabilities. Paul mentions both “tongues of men” and “tongues of angels”. The latter is certainly not a natural language, but could mean glossolalia. The former would likely mean natural languages. So Paul says something that virtuous speech and beautiful “angelic speech” (certainly not a language known to men, what else than glossolalia) are worthless without love.
Chapter 14,2: “…they utter mysteries by the Spirit”. Foreign language utterances are not “mysteries by the Spirit”, certainly not to the speaker.
Chapter 14,13: “For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say”.
If I speak something in French, I do not need to pray for the interpretation. I can simply say the same thing in English. If I speak glossolalia, I have no clue what it means, so I can hope to be given the interpretation by God if I pray. Why would Paul ask the speaker of just a foreign language to pray for the interpretation? How do you imagine the scenario? Some guy who does not speak Greek even though living in Corinth and being a member of the congregation there, this guy going to the service and praying out loud in his own language that no one else understands, and then praying for a translation to Greek, and something forms in his mind, and he speaks perfect Greek and everyone understands him?? And this happening on a regular basis so Paul needs to discuss the ordering of the service according to this phenomenon? Come on.
Chapter 14,14: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”
Sounds like an accurate description of glossolalia to me. Matches the findings that the higher language centers in the brain are not involved (“mind is unfruitful”). [Certainly he did not have brain imaging, but only introspection to come to this formulation.]
From there, Paul seems to equate “praying in a tongue” with “praying with my spirit”.
Chapter 14,15: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.”
Seems like Paul implies that “praying with his spirit” excludes understanding. Again a good match for glossolalia.
I can’t see a natural reading of 1st Corinthians 12-14 with your thesis that Paul just talks about foreign natural languages here. Your thesis seems very contrived.
I have seen people quote Ch. 13,8 “where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled” as an argument why modern Charismatic practice is “ungodly”, but I have never heard anyone denying that glossolalia is reported and discussed in the New Testament. I am greatly puzzled here.
Aaquadrat – I’ll respond to your post as quickly as time allows. A lot of points to comment about!
Apparently, due to size, I’ll have to comment in two separate posts, so 1 of 1 –
_Chapter 12, 10: “… to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.”
Speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues seem to be two different things. That does not make sense for natural languages. You can’t speak a language if you do not understand it, and vice versa.
However, you can produce glossolalia without understanding its meaning (if there should be a meaning). And you can be inspired by glossolalia to say something as its “interpretation”. Think of the string of sounds uttered in glossolalia as a “random seed” to trigger some thoughts/memories/imagination that are thought of as its “interpretation”. [Er, yes, I am computer scientist.]_
Yes, it would seem so at first, but the early church services were modeled after Jewish ones at which the rabbi/teacher spoke in the sacerdotal language of Hebrew and there was another person by his side (this person had a specific title that escapes me at the moment) who translated what the teacher was saying into the vernacular of the audience (Aramaic or Greek as the situation warranted) since by the 1st century AD, virtually no one in the audience would have understood Hebrew.
So in light of this, Paul separates the two, speaking and translating, even though they obviously go hand-in-hand. You can speak a language but not be very good at translating (as stupid as that sounds). Translation work (particularly simultaneous interpretation – think of a UN translator/interpreter) is actually not as simple as it may seem.
Not sure I’d agree that the glossolalia would be the inspiration for the interpretation so much as the person offering the interpretation being inspired by his/her faith and belief. Interpretation of glossolalia may also be said to be self-created based on one’s deep faith and belief. But, I do see your point in the ‘random seed’ analogy.
_Chapter 13, 1-2: “If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love … If I have the gift of prophecy…”
Again, like in Chapter 12, tongues is paralleled with prophecy, both intuitive (supernatural is debatable) rather than rational capabilities. Paul mentions both “tongues of men” and “tongues of angels”. The latter is certainly not a natural language, but could mean glossolalia. The former would likely mean natural languages. So Paul says something that virtuous speech and beautiful “angelic speech” (certainly not a language known to men, what else than glossolalia) are worthless without love._
Here’s a bit more on Paul’s use of hyperbole in his letter (taken from an article written by a N. Busenitz, April, 2014). He explains it better than I can:
The phrase in 1 Corinthians 13:1 is parallel to Paul’s subsequent statements (in v. 2) of knowing “all mysteries and all knowledge” and of having “all faith so as to [literally] remove mountains.” Both of those statements articulate hyperbolic impossibilities (since no one can know all the mysteries or have all knowledge or possess all faith). In verse 3, Paul gives additional extreme examples: giving “away all my possessions” and giving “my body to be burned.” While martyrdom is obviously possible, it still fits the pattern of Paul’s use of extreme examples in order to illustrate a crucial point: even the most superlative expression of any gift (including that which is impossible) would be worthless if it is devoid of love.
One of the things that is important to note about the grammar of 1 Corinthians 13:1 is that, in the Greek, it literally reads: “If with the tongues of men I speak and of angels.” That construction is unique and occurs only here in the New Testament. The grammar suggests that Paul intentionally separated the tongues of men from the tongues of angels, articulating the normal expression of the gift of foreign languages before emphatically inserting a hypothetical hyperbole. This pattern is seen in Paul’s subsequent examples as well.
Based on a comparison of all of Paul’s hypothetical examples in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, a strong case can be made that the apostle was using superlative, hyperbolic, and extreme examples to showcase the superiority of love. This contextual consideration leads us to conclude that the “tongues of angels” was a rhetorical expression, used by Paul to make a point. It did not describe the actual gift of tongues, which consisted only of “the tongues of men.”
When the grammatical and contextual evidence is considered, the “tongues of angels” simply does not provide Charismatics with Biblical support for a non-human form of tongues.
Chapter 14,2: “…they utter mysteries by the Spirit”. Foreign language utterances are not “mysteries by the Spirit”, certainly not to the speaker.
I think you have to take the whole passage into account to understand what is meant.
If I attend a worship service in ‘East Haystack’, Alabama two things are going to be evident: one; there’s only going to be so many people at that service (i.e. there will be a finite given amount of people there) and two; the chances that anyone in East Haystack speaks anything but English is pretty slim to nil. If I start praying aloud in say Lithuanian, there’s no one at that service that’s going to understand a bloody word I’m saying. Even though I’m speaking a real language, no one there will understand my “tongue”. That does not mean or imply that no one else understands Lithuanian; just no one at that particular service.
There’s a few things here to note – first, the passage in no way even remotely suggests that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying; it’s the audience who do not understand, as they don’t speak his language. It ends up being a real language “no one understands” (within that given context). To the people listening to me, I am speaking “mysteries”. An idiomatic expression akin to our “it’s all Greek to me”, i.e. we have no clue what he’s saying; thus, he’s “speaking mysteries”.
Praying “in the Spirit” is another misinterpretation by Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians. Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying (i.e. the language we’re praying in). Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for.
There is no reference to ‘languages’ in any of the three places mentioned above. If the current phenomenon is found here, it is because it has been read into it. ‘Pray in the Spirit’ has come to mean in common Pentecostal/Charismatic parlance, ‘Pray in tongues’.
_Chapter 14,13: “For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say”.
If I speak something in French, I do not need to pray for the interpretation. I can simply say the same thing in English. If I speak glossolalia, I have no clue what it means, so I can hope to be given the interpretation by God if I pray. Why would Paul ask the speaker of just a foreign language to pray for the interpretation? How do you imagine the scenario? Some guy who does not speak Greek even though living in Corinth and being a member of the congregation there, this guy going to the service and praying out loud in his own language that no one else understands, and then praying for a translation to Greek, and something forms in his mind, and he speaks perfect Greek and everyone understands him?? And this happening on a regular basis so Paul needs to discuss the ordering of the service according to this phenomenon? Come on._
No, that’s not at all what I’m suggesting. I’m going to try to explain this in light of real language as best I can…..
The text does not necessarily imply that the person speaking is also going to be doing the translation; it just says he should pray that he can translate what he’s saying – it doesn’t indicate how the translation is to be done. The assumption is that the person speaking will also be doing the translating, but it could just as well imply that if he’s planning on praying aloud at a public meeting, to pray that he’s able to secure a translator for himself.
There is no specific time frame referenced – most people would imply that his ability to translate would be instantaneous, but it could just as well imply that he should pray that (at some point) he’ll also be able to translate (whether he himself learns the local language well enough, or he has someone translate for him).
As I mentioned earlier, it’s one thing to speak another language but another thing to interpret/translate.
If my native language is English and I learn German enough to be able to speak it to get by, it does not necessarily mean I can adequately translate; I may be able to get across the gist of what I’m trying to say, but to express the nuances, particularly with things like prayer, is actually quite a difficult task.
As an example, a few years ago, I translated a simple four-line “meal grace” used in Scouting into a few local Native American languages. Four incredibly simple lines in English, but maddeningly difficult to accurately translate into these languages and try to capture all the nuance and exact meaning of the English original. I never expected it would take anywhere near as long as it did.
Given then the difficulties faced in translation/interpretation, it is not at all unreasonable for a person in a multi-lingual church situation to ask God for help so that the rest of the church can be edified through their participation. Again, it should also be pointed out that the interpretation is not confined to the one speaking as referred to in v13 and in v5. Verse 28 indicates others also can interpret, and of course, there’s no specific time frame referenced.
Paul then goes on to indicate, that if the person can’t translate (whether himself or through a translator), he should keep quiet and pray silently to himself.
As R. MacLachlan write in his book “Tongues Revisited”, “Assuming modern tongues is what is referred to in 1 Corinthians 14, and God’s intention is to edify the church – as is emphasized constantly throughout the chapter – why does he activate someone to exercise the phenomenon but not in all cases provide an interpreter? In fact, why does he give a ‘message’ in a language not known to anyone in the church at all? If edification is what he intends, (and emphatically it is, as this chapter makes plain), why put hurdles “tongues” in the way of it?”
Here’s 2 of 2 –
_Chapter 14,14: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”
Sounds like an accurate description of glossolalia to me. Matches the findings that the higher language centers in the brain are not involved (“mind is unfruitful”). [Certainly he did not have brain imaging, but only introspection to come to this formulation.]
From there, Paul seems to equate “praying in a tongue” with “praying with my spirit”._
The results from the study done by the University of PA that you refer to (the one where they did SPECT imaging of tongues-speakers) seem to support the idea that the reason the language centers of the brain are not overly active during the production of glossolalia (“tongues”) is because glossolalia is not language. I think the results could be skewed either to support or refute “tongues”; thus, should not be relied on as evidence or proof to support either view.
“If I pray in a language, my spirit prays, but my understanding/mind produces no fruit”
Again to paraphrase a little from the aforementioned book, Tongues Revisited…..
What is the fruit that a person’s mind bears? I think the reasonable answer is ‘understanding’. An important question must also be asked. Where does a person’s mind bear fruit or produce understanding? The Charismatic response is, ‘In the person’s own mind.’ This hinges on the use of the word “akarpos” (unfruitful) in Greek. It can be used either with and active meaning or a passive meaning. Charismatic Christians take the meaning as passive; producing no understanding in the speaker’s mind.
However this answer is clearly wrong. The text identifies the fruit of a person’s mind as being the understanding that occurs in the mind of others, not their own! This is an extremely important point as virtually the whole charismatic view of ‘tongues’ finally swings on the word ‘unfruitful’ referring to the speaker’s own mind.
Akarpos, may be also used passively – that part of the text does not center on the activity or nonactivity of the speaker’s mind, but rather on potential benefit derived by listeners.
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the effect upon the hearers of untranslated languages. Paul’s concern is the edification of the group. Therefore, 14:14 should be taken as “My spirit prays but my mind does not produce fruit [in others].” In other words, my mind, my understanding, i.e., the fact that I understand what I’m saying, produces no fruit in others (since they don’t understand my language).
It is interesting to note that Luther’s Bible of 1545 renders the phrase as “my mind/understanding brings no one fruit.
One has to wonder if perhaps Luther understood the passive meaning of the phrase.
_Chapter 14,15: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.”
Seems like Paul implies that “praying with his spirit” excludes understanding. Again a good match for glossolalia._
I will pray with my spirit, i.e. pray in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, and I will also pray with understanding.
In other words, not only will I pray and be edified through my own prayer – which I understand but others don’t – I will also pray so that fruit is produced in the congregation to their edification. The same goes for singing. It hinges back to the verse before it. The idea of the speaker’s understanding also producing fruit (understanding) in the audience’s mind.
This thought is then extended and clarified in v16 and v17 where a person who doesn’t understand the praise being given to God can’t say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving. He doesn’t know what you are saying. You’re giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
I don’t think “understanding” is excluded here since it really refers to the audience, not the speaker.
I can’t see a natural reading of 1st Corinthians 12-14 with your thesis that Paul just talks about foreign natural languages here. Your thesis seems very contrived.
I don’t think so. As I’ve attempted to demonstrate above, each passage can be understood in light of real language.
I have seen people quote Ch. 13,8 “where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled” as an argument why modern Charismatic practice is “ungodly”, but I have never heard anyone denying that glossolalia is reported and discussed in the New Testament. I am greatly puzzled here.
I think that hinges on the Pentecostal/Charismatic understanding of “tongues”/glossolalia. For these Christians, “tongues” can only mean glossolalia, otherwise what they are producing/doing doesn’t have any Scriptural reference. The word used was ‘glossa’ and its meaning is ‘language’ – Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are reading into the text something that is just not there.
I think some of this centers on the meaning of the phrase “(praying) in the Spirit”.
It’s only mentioned three times in the Bible (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude).
The Greek word translated “pray in” can have several different meanings. It can mean “by means of,” “with the help of,” “in the sphere of,” and “in connection to.” Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for.
Therefore, praying in the Spirit should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, not as praying in “tongues”.
Here’s 2 of 2
_Chapter 14,14: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”
Sounds like an accurate description of glossolalia to me. Matches the findings that the higher language centers in the brain are not involved (“mind is unfruitful”). [Certainly he did not have brain imaging, but only introspection to come to this formulation.]
From there, Paul seems to equate “praying in a tongue” with “praying with my spirit”._
The results from the study done by the University of PA that you refer to (the one where they did SPECT imaging of tongues-speakers) seem to support the idea that the reason the language centers of the brain are not overly active during the production of glossolalia (“tongues”) is because glossolalia is not language. I think the results could be skewed either to support or refute “tongues”; thus, should not be relied on as evidence or proof to support either view.
“If I pray in a language, my spirit prays, but my understanding/mind produces no fruit”
Again to paraphrase a little from the aforementioned book, Tongues Revisited…..
What is the fruit that a person’s mind bears? I think the reasonable answer is ‘understanding’. An important question must also be asked. Where does a person’s mind bear fruit or produce understanding? The Charismatic response is, ‘In the person’s own mind.’ This hinges on the use of the word “akarpos” (unfruitful) in Greek. It can be used either with and active meaning or a passive meaning. Charismatic Christians take the meaning as passive; producing no understanding in the speaker’s mind.
However this answer is clearly wrong. The text identifies the fruit of a person’s mind as being the understanding that occurs in the mind of others, not their own! This is an extremely important point as virtually the whole charismatic view of ‘tongues’ finally swings on the word ‘unfruitful’ referring to the speaker’s own mind.
Akarpos, may be also used passively – that part of the text does not center on the activity or nonactivity of the speaker’s mind, but rather on potential benefit derived by listeners.
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the effect upon the hearers of untranslated languages. Paul’s concern is the edification of the group. Therefore, 14:14 should be taken as “My spirit prays but my mind does not produce fruit [in others].” In other words, my mind, my understanding, i.e., the fact that I understand what I’m saying, produces no fruit in others (since they don’t understand my language).
It is interesting to note that Luther’s Bible of 1545 renders the phrase as “my mind/understanding brings no one fruit.
One has to wonder if perhaps Luther understood the passive meaning of the phrase.
_Chapter 14,15: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.”
Seems like Paul implies that “praying with his spirit” excludes understanding. Again a good match for glossolalia._
I will pray with my spirit, i.e. pray in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, and I will also pray with understanding.
In other words, not only will I pray and be edified through my own prayer – which I understand but others don’t – I will also pray so that fruit is produced in the congregation to their edification. The same goes for singing. It hinges back to the verse before it. The idea of the speaker’s understanding also producing fruit (understanding) in the audience’s mind.
This thought is then extended and clarified in v16 and v17 where a person who doesn’t understand the praise being given to God can’t say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving. He doesn’t know what you are saying. You’re giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
I don’t think “understanding” is excluded here since it really refers to the audience, not the speaker.
I can’t see a natural reading of 1st Corinthians 12-14 with your thesis that Paul just talks about foreign natural languages here. Your thesis seems very contrived.
I don’t think so. As I’ve attempted to demonstrate above, each passage can be understood in light of real language.
I have seen people quote Ch. 13,8 “where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled” as an argument why modern Charismatic practice is “ungodly”, but I have never heard anyone denying that glossolalia is reported and discussed in the New Testament. I am greatly puzzled here.
I think that hinges on the Pentecostal/Charismatic understanding of “tongues”/glossolalia. For these Christians, “tongues” can only mean glossolalia, otherwise what they are producing/doing doesn’t have any Scriptural reference. The word used was ‘glossa’ and its meaning is ‘language’ – Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are reading into the text something that is just not there.
I think some of this centers on the meaning of the phrase “(praying) in the Spirit”.
It’s only mentioned three times in the Bible (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude).
The Greek word translated “pray in” can have several different meanings. It can mean “by means of,” “with the help of,” “in the sphere of,” and “in connection to.” Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for.
Therefore, praying in the Spirit should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, not as praying in “tongues”.
Looks like I can’t post two longer comments right after one another. It times out on me. I’ll post “part 2 of 2” ASAP.
_Chapter 14,14: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.”
Sounds like an accurate description of glossolalia to me. Matches the findings that the higher language centers in the brain are not involved (“mind is unfruitful”). [Certainly he did not have brain imaging, but only introspection to come to this formulation.]
From there, Paul seems to equate “praying in a tongue” with “praying with my spirit”._
The results from the study done by the University of PA that you refer to (the one where they did SPECT imaging of tongues-speakers) seem to support the idea that the reason the language centers of the brain are not overly active during the production of glossolalia (“tongues”) is because glossolalia is not language. I think the results could be skewed either to support or refute “tongues”; thus, should not be relied on as evidence or proof to support either view.
“If I pray in a language, my spirit prays, but my understanding/mind produces no fruit”
Again to paraphrase a little from the aforementioned book, Tongues Revisited…..
What is the fruit that a person’s mind bears? I think the reasonable answer is ‘understanding’. An important question must also be asked. Where does a person’s mind bear fruit or produce understanding? The Charismatic response is, ‘In the person’s own mind.’ This hinges on the use of the word “akarpos” (unfruitful) in Greek. It can be used either with and active meaning or a passive meaning. Charismatic Christians take the meaning as passive; producing no understanding in the speaker’s mind.
However this answer is clearly wrong. The text identifies the fruit of a person’s mind as being the understanding that occurs in the mind of others, not their own! This is an extremely important point as virtually the whole charismatic view of ‘tongues’ finally swings on the word ‘unfruitful’ referring to the speaker’s own mind.
Akarpos, may be also used passively – that part of the text does not center on the activity or nonactivity of the speaker’s mind, but rather on potential benefit derived by listeners.
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the effect upon the hearers of untranslated languages. Paul’s concern is the edification of the group. Therefore, 14:14 should be taken as “My spirit prays but my mind does not produce fruit [in others].” In other words, my mind, my understanding, i.e., the fact that I understand what I’m saying, produces no fruit in others (since they don’t understand my language).
It is interesting to note that Luther’s Bible of 1545 renders the phrase as “my mind/understanding brings no one fruit.
One has to wonder if perhaps Luther understood the passive meaning of the phrase.
_Chapter 14,15: “I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.”
Seems like Paul implies that “praying with his spirit” excludes understanding. Again a good match for glossolalia._
I will pray with my spirit, i.e. pray in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, and I will also pray with understanding.
In other words, not only will I pray and be edified through my own prayer – which I understand but others don’t – I will also pray so that fruit is produced in the congregation to their edification. The same goes for singing. It hinges back to the verse before it. The idea of the speaker’s understanding also producing fruit (understanding) in the audience’s mind.
This thought is then extended and clarified in v16 and v17 where a person who doesn’t understand the praise being given to God can’t say ‘Amen’ to your thanksgiving. He doesn’t know what you are saying. You’re giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
I don’t think “understanding” is excluded here since it really refers to the audience, not the speaker.
I can’t see a natural reading of 1st Corinthians 12-14 with your thesis that Paul just talks about foreign natural languages here. Your thesis seems very contrived.
I don’t think so. As I’ve attempted to demonstrate above, each passage can be understood in light of real language.
I have seen people quote Ch. 13,8 “where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled” as an argument why modern Charismatic practice is “ungodly”, but I have never heard anyone denying that glossolalia is reported and discussed in the New Testament. I am greatly puzzled here.
I think that hinges on the Pentecostal/Charismatic understanding of “tongues”/glossolalia. For these Christians, “tongues” can only mean glossolalia, otherwise what they are producing/doing doesn’t have any Scriptural reference. The word used was ‘glossa’ and its meaning is ‘language’ – Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are reading into the text something that is just not there.
I think some of this centers on the meaning of the phrase “(praying) in the Spirit”.
It’s only mentioned three times in the Bible (Corinthians, Ephesians, and Jude).
The Greek word translated “pray in” can have several different meanings. It can mean “by means of,” “with the help of,” “in the sphere of,” and “in connection to.” Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for.
Therefore, praying in the Spirit should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, not as praying in “tongues”.
The way I understand it, the gift of speaking and understanding in a different language was a beautiful gift by God when he changed the language of the people that were trying to build the tower to Heaven. I was raised pentecostal and taught very strictly their beliefs. My family is still pentecostal and I have a great respect for them all, I respect anyone that can live each day in kindness, love, and faith. I ran across this while researching the Bible for myself as well as for my daughter. I am trying to understand Gods Word for myself without influence. There are many things I don’t understand and sometimes feel like I shouldn’t even question what was taught to me but until I can tell my daughter Why without saying, “That is just the way it is and you are not to question it.” I will continue my quest of understanding thru reading, praying, and researching the Word of God. I have really enjoyed reading all the comments on here! Not one view on here is any less than the other, nor is one person on here the hail Mary of truth while the others are fumbled. I 100% believe our personal relationship with God and how much faith we allow ourselves to walk in, will ultimately be our guide to understanding, not what some scientist said. What scientist would admit to and proof anything for a Christain?Why would they go against their
own values, beliefs, teachings, studies, peers, and everything else related to science to admit a supernatural force liken to the very one they believe never existed? Why would I believe any study done by someone that thinks they are related closely to a monkey and we are all simply evolved gorillas? I don’t hold much regard in the main article as I found it to be rather distasteful and actually sad, I feel sorry for the author. Enlightment should only come thru self discovery…If not wouldn’t you always question the validity? I would and I wish you all the best journey you could possibly have. One Love
Hi Amy,
I think I should add one key observation – No amount of belief makes something a fact.
You will need to ask yourself this question. Are you interested in knowing what is actually true, or simply embracing a belief that is popular?
The one person that will always be inclined to fool us the most is ourselves, and so we all need to start by working out a reliable way of determining what is and is not objectively true. If you don’t have a reliable way of doing that, then you can’t really have any confidence in any conclusions.
Mike, you’re being analytical. No offence. If you experience it, you know its right and you are in tune with God. The natural man understands not the things of God. Challenge Him!! All the talk in the world is futile. He simply lays it down and if we follow it, we’ll get the answer. Repent, be baptised and guess what you’ll receive the Holy Spirit. Say hallelujah over and over and your tongue WILL change. You have to be absolutely sincere in your approach. Test it! But all the waffle in the world (as we do), will bring about nothing. He promises and it’s there if we check in.
Whether the tongue sounds like a natural language or not is irrelevant. It can though as proven by certain comments here. My words are short and hopefully sweet. When you debate against tongues, you’re debating against God. Man is so clever in his own mind that he doesn’t see the real picture. We love to analyse. We get on our soap box. I’m amazed at how many comments are on here arguing away at the tongue issue. You know what – the thing that man cannot control is the tongue. It’s full of envy, strife etc. that’s why the Lord chose the tongue and takes control of it. Speaking in tongues is a sign you have received God’s Holy Spirit. I know I’ll cop it for my frank outburst, but I’m not worried. Stop debating and put it to the test. You’ll know then it’s for real. Stop arguing with the creator. Humility is called for. It’s been made complicated when it’s all so simple. Repent, be baptised and you will receive the HS. It’s a promise AND GOD DOES NOT LIE!!! Amen and amen.
The “tongues” Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians are producing today is an entirely self-created phenomenon. It is non-cognitive non-language utterance; random free vocalization based upon a subset of the existing sounds of the speaker’s native language, and any other language(s) the speaker may be familiar with or have had contact with. It is typically characterized by repetitive syllables, plays on sound patterns and over-simplification of syllable structure.
There is nothing that these ‘speakers’ are producing that cannot be explained in natural linguistic terms.
Conversely, there are no Biblical references to ‘tongues” that cannot be explained with respect to real language.
The idea that debating against tongues is debating against God doesn’t stand as there is nothing in the Bible that references what Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are doing. There’s no arguing against the Creator here; just a total re-definition of Scripture by tongues speakers to proof what they are producing is in the Bible.
People seem to forget that “tongue(s)” is just a somewhat archaic word for “language(s)”. Replace “tongue(s)” with “language(s)” in these passages and the whole modern concept of “tongues” begins to sound considerably less mysterious and mystical/angelic. Indeed, it begins to become difficult to posit the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic concept of ‘tongues’.
Pentecostal and Charismatic ‘tongues-speakers’ look for Biblical references for what they are doing; however, they are simply not there. The resulting implicit theology is not a synthesis of revelation and philosophy, but rather a synthesis of trying to make sense of the “tongues experience” in light of the narrative of Scripture.
In other words, a way to legitimize the modern phenomenon by ‘proofing‘ it in the Bible, despite the obvious overwhelming absence therein of anything resembling modern tongues – call it what you will, but the result was a virtual re-definition of Scripture with respect to the understanding/justification of modern “tongues” for this group of Christians.
“Tongues” is simply not what its ‘speakers’ want/need it to be.
Modern tongues is just another tool, like chanting or meditation, etc.; a way by which one may establish a closer relationship with the divine. In this respect (i.e. as the tool it is), it can be quite powerful to accomplish this goal. Known by many different names, “tongues” is practiced by many cultures and religious beliefs from all over the world; it is relatively new to Christianity and certainly not unique to it.
Frequently going hand-in-hand with tongues, “interpretation” may also be said to be a self-created phenomenon. Interpretations, inspired by one’s deep faith and beliefs, are typically inordinately longer than the actual glossic utterance. The relatively generic messages however do not suggest anything divinely inspired. This is clearly evidenced in that the same glossic string played to ten different interpreters yields ten non-related results. In “tongues”, a ‘big brown dog, can also be a ‘small white cat’.
The common answer is that God/the Holy Spirit gives different interpretations to different people. To paraphrase from a few writers…Pentecostal Darwinism however, does not exist – there’s no mutation or transformation of one message into several for the sake of justifying an obvious discrepancy. If this were the case, it would completely eradicate the need for ‘tongues’ in the first place. It’s akin to improv. You’re an actor. What’s your motivation? You’re God, and you want to say something encouraging and/or inspiring to the gathered audience. Improvise. Go!
Where in the word of God do we any just say repeat hallelujah. When anyone received the sign gift it was instant. Not something one could be taught,
So with OUT repenting AND being water baptised YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE THE GIFT OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES?
so its not the holy spirits gift, YOU HAVE TO BE SINCERE IN YOUR APPROACH, SO YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF THE GIFT.
DOES THE BIBLE ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES ? If so we all should be pastors, prophets, teachers ect OR WE ARE ALL the eye, the foot , the body, the hip???
I’m not going to elaborate. As you say hallelujah your tongue will change. You have to be of a contrite heart. It’s there for all but not all will take heed. Without my Spirit, you are none of mine. I’ve told you how to receive it. It’s now up to you. Stay skeprical if you want to. My sheep know my voice. Amen
Thanks for the comments. We should also understand we believe by faith and not by sight,
So one has to beware as we know emotions, feeling and experience can not be relied upon as they change. But Gods work never changes
i had a neighbor who claimed to the capacity to speak in tongues and she claimed that she was speaking in ancient hebrew. I asked her how she knew it was in ancient hebrew, and she stated that it sounded like the hebrew she heard on TV. I pointed out that hebrew was already a dead language by the time of the so called biblical timer of christ. And today, hebrew is taught like latin ( phonetically) and we have no way to know what the original hebrew alphabet sounded like. And se was just mimicking what she heard on TV and just making up words. She asked me how I knew this, and i responded in actual hebrew to answer her question. I was immediately told to leave the house.
I think this is very typical – people say it “sounds like” language X, not “it IS” language X.
We do know what Hebrew sounded like in the first century AD – not sure if that’s what’s used/taught in Judaism today with respect to reading from Torah, etc. It is different from modern Hebrew.
Hi Mike
January 7, 2018 at 02:55
Paul wrote 1 Corinthians about 25 years after Pentecost. What happened before that
Pentecost from then what happened Pentecost : Holy Spirit and tongues
4 years later again at Samaritan Peter and John : Holy Spirit NO tongues
5 years later Paul conversion Ananias : Holy Spirit NO tongues
19 years later Cornelius conversion Peter : Holy Spirit and tongues
23 years later Ephesus Paul : Holy Spirit and tongues
What was tongues at Pentecost ?
What was tongues 19 and 23 later ?? SURELY EARTHLY EARTHLY LANGUAGES ? IF PAUL SPOKE MORE EARTHLY LANGUAGES THAN MOST FOLK AT THAT TIME
PAUL COULD SAY “I SPEAK MORE TONGUES THAN ANYONE “.
BUT IF YOU CONCLUDE THAT PAUL MEANT, HE SPENT MORE TIME PRAYING IN HEAVENLY TONGUES THAN ANYONE ELSE, HOW WOULD HE KNOW THAT?
LOTS RELIGIOUS FOLKS COULD BE SPEAKING IN TONGUES 1,2,3,5,10, OR MORE HOURS A DAY, HOW WOULD PAUL KNOW HOW MANY HOURS EACH PERSON SPOKE IN TONGUES?? Example could Paul really know how many hours he prayed? what about LUKE 2:37 ” and then was a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple, but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.”
The listeners listed all their various nationalities and observed again that they HEARD the speakers speaking of the mighty deeds of God in their own tongues (glossa), meaning EARTHLY languages. The miracle HEARING, I could be speaking Galilean but you heard it in English.
Initial giving of the Spirit to different people groups in the book of Acts:
(1) Jews (Acts 2),
(2) Samaritans (implied in Acts 8:18),
(3) Gentiles (Acts 10)
(4) disciples of John the Baptist (Acts 19)
I guess the Apostle Paul was deluded when he said that he was glad that he spoke more in tongues than others? Someone should have told him it was all in his mind and make believe.
Hi Carol
I KNOW WE ARE ON A DIFFERENT SUBJECT. BUT THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS : IRON SHARPENS IRON
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
The Hebrew word yom and its plural form yamim are used over 1900 times in the Old Testament. . . . Outside of the Genesis 1 case in question, the two-hundred plus occurrences of yom preceded by ordinals all refer to a normal twenty-four hour day. Furthermore, the seven-hundred plus appearances of yamim always refer to a regular day. Thus, it is argued that the Exodus 20:11 reference to the six yamim of creation must also refer to six regular days.1
For example, have you read Numbers 7 recently? It is one of those boring sections that you would rather skip over in your Bible reading plan, forgetting what 2 Timothy 3:16 says! Well, in Numbers 7, the tribes of Israel bring their gifts for the Tabernacle to Moses. In Numbers 7:12, we read that the tribe of Judah brought their offering on the first day. On the second day, the tribe of Issachar came (Numbers 7:18. Zebulun brought their offering on the third day (Numbers 7:24). Since a day with the Lord is as a thousand years (2 Peter 3:8), was poor old Moses sat there for 12,000 years, waiting for these offerings? Of course not! These were 12 literal 24-hour days. And the grammar of Numbers 7 is identical to that of Genesis 1. In fact, outside of Genesis 1, there is not a single example of the word yom being used with a number, where it does not mean a 24 hour day. So, there is no reason to interpret Genesis 1 in any other way than to state that it refers to 24-hour days.
Why did God take six days?
Was there death, pain, and suffering before Adam and Eve’s sin?
At the close of the Creation Week, God called everything He had made “very good.” This is powerful evidence against the idea that long ages of suffering and dying took place before the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, appeared.
If you think about it, an infinite Creator God could have created everything in no time. Why, then, did He take as long as six days? The answer is given in Exodus 20:11. Here we find that God tells us that He deliberately took six days and rested for one as a pattern for man—this is where the seven-day week comes from. The seven-day week has no basis for existing except from Scripture. If one believes that the days of creation are long periods of time, then the week becomes meaningless.
The Bible tells us that Adam was created on the sixth day. If he lived through day six and day seven, and then died when he was 930 years old, and if each of these days was a thousand or a million years, you have major problems! On the fourth day of creation (Genesis 1:14-19), we are given the comparison of day to night, and days to years. If the word “day” doesn’t mean an ordinary day, then the comparison of day to night and day to years becomes meaningless.
Carole
January 4, 2018 at 10:23
Is there any scriptures that command or instruct us to speak in tongues. If tongues is so important why is it not a requirements for bishop, Elders, pastors and deacons.
See 1 Timothy 3:1–7: “Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.”
See Titus 1:6–9 “An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it”
See 1 Timothy 3:8–13 “In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything. A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus”
IF SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS NECESSARY AND IMPORTANT SHOULD THEY NOT ELDERS, DEACONS AND PASTORS HAVE THEM MORE THAN AN ORDINARY PERSON NOT ASSIGNED TO A POST?
WHY IS TONGUES NOT A FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT ? Galatians 5:22-23 ” But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” SHOULD IT BE ?
For many years SPEAKING IN TONGUES it was confined to the Pentecostal churches, but now crosses all denominational lines in the form of what is called the Charismatic Movement. Even Roman Catholics, Protestants, cults, and some who call themselves Baptists, practice tongues and have joined the movement
Are tongues in your assembly different from all these other tongues ? because everything is done decently and in order. You have up to 3 messages in tongues with an interpretation after each message and then at the most, 3 prophecies. IF THE MESSAGES ARE INTERPRETED WHY NOT JUST HAVE THE MESSAGE IN YOUR OWN LANGUAGE TO START WITH. WAS SPEAKING IN TONGUES IN ACTS 2 NOT “magnifying and glorifying GOD” IN COMMON EARTHLY LANGUAGES.
YOU MENTIONED THE FOLLOWING, I ANSWERED WITH CAPITALS TO MAKE IT EASIER TO UNDERSTAND
We are expected to repent REPENT FROM WHAT, REPENT FROM OUR SINS, OR REPENT FROM UNBELIEF TO BELIEF IN JESUS, OR REPENT FROM OUR MISTAKES (turn away from our own ideas) WHAT IDEAS DO WE TURN FROM ? get baptised SO TO BE BORN AGAIN WE NEED TO BE WATER BAPTISED ? (the Greek word meaning inundated) NOT sprinkled, christening is not mentioned in the Bible (how can a baby or small child repent) AND you shall receive the Holy Spirit.SO WE RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT BY BEING WATER BAPTIZED ? Speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of an inward experience.DOES THE BIBLE NOT SAY NOT ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES ??? SO IF I DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES I AM NOT SAVED , I HAVE NOT GOT THE HOLY SPIRIT ???
Its to be used in our daily prayer life SO SPEAKING SOMETHING YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND, IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER. DID JESUS SPEAK IN TONGUES AS HE WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. DID HE EVER INSTRUCT HIS DISCIPLES OR THE JEWS TO SPEAK IN TONGUES ??? as well as in the operation of the Spiritual Gifts during a meeting. I prefer not to say church as ‘The Church’ is the Body of Christ and without receiving the Holy Spirit speaking on tongues you are none of His. Repent, get baptised and receive the Holy Spirit. I promise you your life will change forever for the good. Basically turn or burn! The Lord Jesus Christ is at the door He’ll be back soon. Have a look around you, greed, no morals, boasters, children disobedient to parents, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. Do it, you have no excuse and as the scripture says ‘a fool in his heart says their is no God’. Receive the Spirit speaking in tongues and walk on in that way before the Lord returns.
SO YOU ARE SAYING ONE MUST REPENT (FROM WHAT)
BE WATER BAPTISED
SPEAK IN TONGUES OTHERWISE ONE IS NOT SAVED ???? is that what the bible teaches ?
Mario.
Repentance means basically to turn away from our own way of thinking and turn to the Lord. Before I was baptised under the water, I didn’t really know what repentance was so I said in my mind ‘forgive me Lord for sinning against you, my parents and my own body’ (anorexia). Just a few scriptures for you. Mark 16:15-20, Acts 2:4,38, Acts 10:44-46. The Lord Jesus had no need to speak in tongues He was God as a man. Men and women including Mary and the Lord’s disciples were there on the day of Pentecost where they were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues. The folk in the Old Testament didn’t receive the Holy Spirit as such though they were moved by it at times, it wasn’t there time but some saw it from a far off. We are in the last of the latter days and the Lord’s return is imminent. We have to be filled with His Spirit, and walk on the Spirit until the day of His return. Yep ‘repent, get baptized and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Hope this answers some of your questions. I live in the southern hemisphere nowadays so its after 11 pm here. Cheers, Carole
Good morning Mario. Yes unless we receive the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues we aren’t saved. The elders, bishops, etc of the NT did speak in tongues. I read my Bible for a few years before I was saved. I could understand some of the Gospels, i.e, Matt-John but as soon as I received the Spirit (speaking in tongues) and looked at God’s Word (Bible) I said to my mum ‘wow its speaking to me’. Genesis to me back then was just about ‘thou and thee’ now its clear. The Lord didn’t create the world in 7 consecutive days as some would believe, as the Hebrew word ‘yom’ means ‘an unspecified period of time NOT a day’. Note too that the Lord created ‘man’ on the 6th day in Gen.1, and in Gen. He made man i.e Adam and Eve, being 8th day man as we are today. Cheers, Carole
How can one explain receiving the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues to those that haven’t received it? Well my late Pastor used to say ‘its better felt than telt’ ….. not grammatically correct, of course, though it makes a lot of sense to me. I can only suggest that you get down on your knees and ask the Lord to fill you. You really have to want it and approach Him in a humble manner (on your knees), ask from the heart and say a few hallelujahs. It happened to me as I said 38 years ago, it can happen to you too. My job is to witness to people ‘go out and preach my Gospel ….. he that believes (adheres to ,trusts in, obeys) shall be saved. He’s saying repent, get baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit and you shall SPEAK IN TONGUES. That is the beginning of one’s salvation. Be like a child and do what He says, not what I say. Many are called but few are chosen. I’m not here to win arguments but to save souls for the Lord. I came to the Lord as a child (humbly, I mean), I didn’t ask questions, I just did what was pointed out to me from the Bible. There are assemblies all over the world that believe in the same message as we do and they’re now part of us. PNG has thousands of Spirit Filled folk and they have lots of baptisms every week, they’re simple people (not unintelligent). As Anglo-Saxon Celtic folk we could learn a lot from them,. They have nothing in the natural sense but they are richer than millionaires because He cares! Ask the Lord to direct you to the Truth. Pilate asked Jesus ‘what is truth?’, he was looking at it straight in the eye! No man can come to the Father but by Him (Jesus Christ). Why should I make stories up or tell a lie, what does that profit me? Nothing! I am telling you the absolute truth. I’m praising the Lord for my salvation and my wonderful life in Him. He provides all my needs, not necessarily my wants. I’d be pushing up daisies if not for Him choosing me. How blessed I am. Living in this horrid world today, I regularly quote a scripture “a thousand shall fall at thy side and ten thousand at thy right BUT it shall come nigh thee (me)”. As I said do what He says. That great and terrible day of the Lord is night at hand. Great for Spirt filled overcoming believers but terrible for everyone else. Take care. Read the scriptures I’ve suggested. Carole
The Lord expects us to do everything decently and in order as the scriptures says and not to burst out in tongues willy nilly. The assembly I attend does everything decently and in order. We have up to 3 messages in tongues with an interpretation after each message and then at the most, 3 prophecies. I received the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues 38 years ago, that experience has never left me. At that time I suffered with anorexia nervosa, the Lord heal me. We are expected to repent (turn away from our own ideas), get baptised (the Greek word meaning inundated) NOT sprinkled, christening is not mentioned in the Bible (how can a baby or small child repent) AND you shall receive the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of an inward experience. Its to be used in our daily prayer life as well as in the operation of the Spiritual Gifts during a meeting. I prefer not to say church as ‘The Church’ is the Body of Christ and without receiving the Holy Spirit speaking on tongues you are none of His. Repent, get baptised and receive the Holy Spirit. I promise you your life will change forever for the good. Basically turn or burn! The Lord Jesus Christ is at the door He’ll be back soon. Have a look around you, greed, no morals, boasters, children disobedient to parents, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. Do it, you have no excuse and as the scripture says ‘a fool in his heart says their is no God’. Receive the Spirit speaking in tongues and walk on in that way before the Lord returns.
Yes Carole. You hit it on the head. Anon
Wow, mind-blowing girl. Not wishy woshy. It’s so clear to me now.
“Speaking in tongues is the outward manifestation of an inward experience.”
Yes, but that outward manifestation is entirely self-created. Modern ‘tongues’ are simply a tool. Read some of the posts below.
Modern tongues are non-cognitive non-language utterance based primarily upon the speaker’s own native language.
There are hundreds of examples which have been recorded and/or transcribed and analyzed. Not one has ever been found to be real language let alone something that was/is spoken somewhere in the world.
Hi Kavik
Some tongues (languages) are recognisable. My mum gave a message in tongues at a Sunday meeting and there were a couple who had lived in Africa, they said she had an African dialect. Tongues of angels and of men. One chap in our meeting, though not entirely all in the French language, gives messages in tongues and I recognise some words as French as I learned it at school.
Hello! I found your excellent post after a search related to an unrelated idea. As someone who was a full-on tongue talking, prophecying, vision having freaknut pentecostal for twenty years, I feel I may have an interesting perspective on such things and even though this is an old post, I can’t help but say my tuppence worth.
I am now an atheist, after realising over an agonising few years that everything I’d built my life on for most of my adult life was a crock of shite.
I was previously involved with the “Toronto blessing” and went to a Pentecostal Bible College for two years, amongst other things studying New Testament Greek and a smattering of O.T. Hebrew, along with a very strangely skewed version of Church History. I know the Bible better than anyone I’ve ever met and I can categorically say I don’t believe a word of it.
As for ‘tongues’ I came to the conclusion long ago that it is, as this article partly suggests, a taught response that is not entirely without it’s merits as a form of releasing your innermost feelings in the form of random gibberish and, depending on your variety of lunacy, groaning, weeping, laughing and making pronouncements of meaning and feigned power. It feels really nice to do, and one sometimes enters into a similar state to some forms of meditation. Especially if you do the “soaking” stuff where you all lie around on the floor with floaty music and say and sing things as ‘the spirit’ moves you. But as for the act itself, it’s completely meaningless. You may as well be blowing rasberries. Actually at some of the wilder meeting I attended as a young Christian, I’m pretty sure some people did. I’m also fairly sure I remember people making animal noises too. I semi-rejected that stuff after a short while and became a mostly sensible member of ‘new wave’ type churches like NFI and Vineyard.
If you’d asked me about it a decade ago I’d have spouted the same guff that all the religious people below have done. It’s simply impossible, within the evangelical mindset to accept information that disagrees with your understanding of how the world works. It truly seems to be clearly fallacious because you have ‘experienced’ God in a very real way, so everything is viewed from a highly skewed pespective.
It’s really difficult to allow yourself enough doubt to honestly assess your own experience. For me this process took many years, and was made possible in part because my health collapsed while I was a believer. I had no energy to read or listen to audio books, or talk to people. I just had to sit and think, and in that situation you naturally become more honest with yourself.
I’m going to post a slightly edited version of this post on another thread btw. I like your website by the way. If you’re interested in a highly unusual version of a ‘testimony’ I’d love to write about it some more.
Hi Dan, if you write it all up, I’ll happily publish it as a separate posting.
The human Spirit desires EXPERIENCE, it does not differentiate good from bad, and it certainly does not speak through us, but rather within us.
We are here to experience life for our Spirit, Higher Self, Soul, etc., and whether it be deemed evil, good, perfection or a lie, it is still experience that feeds our Spirit. On a human level speaking in tongues is unfortunately a farce, but on a Spiritual level the delusion we see from the religious minded is exactly as it should be.
@Scott: Your comment is a bit cryptic, I did not fully understand. Can you elaborate a bit?
Thanks for sharing, Dan. You say “releasing your innermost feelings in the form of random gibberish”, and maybe this is actually the point of the exercise. Opening up. I feels like reaching a higher state of mind. However, it does not work in the same way if your are not believing something meaningful/Divine is happening.
How does people respond to prayers ? Like falling down, devils dancing etc ..
@J
Though they’re long, I think you need to read through some of the comments below with respect to the concept of modern tongues and various studies done. I think they will provide a better insight to the phenomenon of modern tongues/glossolalia.
Speaking in tongues is a real phenomenon but, for Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians, a very modern one (though glossolalia itself is very ancient); no two are ever the same.
Hi all
Speaking in tongues as per Acts 2.
When you received tongues did you hear the sound of a mighty rushing wind? Did you see cloves like fire rest upon you? Did tongues come immediately ? or were you taught how to pray in tongues?
Did any of the people that received the gift of tongues at Pentecost, then teach other believers to speak in tongues? Is this biblical.
Does the bible say its for all believers?
It’s not actaught language but on receiving it your tongue changes. Tests have been done to see if it’s just man going blah blah…. they found out it wasn’t but something they couldn’t explain. The power of God. Better felt than telt!!!!
Not sure what tests you’re referring to, but the only ones I know of were done by the UP using SPECT imaging several years ago. The results of the study were exactly as one would expect. The language centers of the brain were not overly engaged in producing “tongues” because modern ‘tongues’ are not language; they are non-cognitive non-language utterance; self-created random free vocalization which is based upon the speaker’s own native language (and any other s/he may be familiar with of have been exposed to).
Hello there! I feel prompted to comment, because this article actually doesn’t provide “hard solid scientific proof that [speaking in tongues] is not real.”
First, this article is a “secondary source.” This means that the author is not publishing his own findings, but is reporting on the findings of others. Therefore, the margin for error in communication is increased: without reviewing the cited sources, we cannot know if the author of this article is presenting study findings accurately. (Therefore, we cannot accept the author’s assertion that his article offers scientific proof.)
Secondly, the author’s following claim raises a red flag: “Modern practitioners claim that what they are doing is exactly the same as the experience described within the Book of Acts (2:1-13), however one huge discrepancy is that the story within Book of Acts describes recognised languages from all around the Roman Empire being spoken. In stark contrast, nobody understands the modern mindless babbling.” This is an incorrect and false assertion. I have personally heard reports of people praying in tongues unknown to them, only for the tongue to be recognized by another individual as a modern day language. I do not expect anyone to read the statement I just made and believe in the gift of tongues, or that the reports are true. I only ask readers to consider that reports contrary to the author’s assertion DO exist. (This further negates the “proof” supposedly offered in this article.)
Thirdly, the existence of false practitioners of tongues (people who imitate or create language-like sounds out of deep belief or a desire to deceive) is not sufficient to negate the existence of legitimate practitioners of tongues. Similarly, false practicing born of a desire to “blend in” to a spiritual community does not negate the existence of impartation of real tongues. (My third point actually reminds me of an episode of “Friends.” Phoebe attempts to teach Joey basic French, which Joey needs for an audition. Joey imitates Phoebe’s inflections and syllables, but he never speaks a legitimate French word. However, although Joey is just making convincing noises, Phoebe is speaking a real language.)
Finally, there are several issues with the research cited in this article:
– We do not know if any of the research conducted was skewed by research bias.
– The sample from “Abnormal Psychology” was unrepresentative: only 60 out of thousands of unbelievers were studied; and apparently, they were all undergraduates at the same university.
– The article states that the study in “Abnormal Psych” found that “20% could accomplish it . . . and 70% could succeed . . .” but the author of this article does not define what “it” is. A made up language? A real language that was unknown to every student? A made up language very similar to a language that each student spoke? The answers to these questions could increase or decrease the study’s validity.
– We do not know if the people Samarin sampled all defined “speaking in tongues” the same way, nor can we deny the possibility of uncontrolled/unknown variables that may have impacted his studies.
– There appears to be a lack of repetition among the studies. Scientifically speaking, if study findings cannot be replicated, the findings of the initial study are typically considered anomalies.
– Only three studies were referenced. All of the studies are rather outdated, and two were published during the same year. These facts do not invalidate the study’s findings, but they imply that research on the subject is limited. (Unfortunately, we can’t take the author’s word for there being “a lot of independent studies” done – because accepting his word does not follow the scientific process!) This is a phenomenon dating back to Ancient Rome, with worldwide reports of its occurrence. Additional studies are therefore warranted before a definite conclusion can be reached.
The research critique in my final point presents questions that may be answered by reviewing the studies themselves, and/or by additional research. However, they are questions worth asking, because they offer insight into the validity of the research, and because this article fails to address them.
In conclusion, I wrote this comment to demonstrate that despite the author’s claims, this article fails to offer scientific proof that the gift of tongues is not real. When a reader employs critical thinking, the flaws in this article are very evident; so much information is lacking, and the author’s examination of the gift of tongues is far from scientific. Academically speaking, this article has little merit. One might find that the same can be said of the sources cited. I won’t tell you what to believe in, but please don’t take this article’s word for it.
@J
Although somewhat lengthy, I think you need to go through the comments below to get more insight to the modern phenomenon of tongues with respect to studies and general comments.
Tongues/glossolalia is a real phenomenon, but for Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians, a very modern one (glossolalia itself though is very ancient); no two tongues are ever the same (as they are self created) which negates any sort of idea of the ‘universality’ of tongues.
Just read your summation and experience concerning tongues. I have been involved in ministry full time for near on 26years now and debated this many times. I know many a time it has been debated by those who believe simply based on experience rather than scripture. I come at it from a scriptural point of view and would assert, even with distinguished scholars, that they are in era if they believe that the tongues spoken about by Paul was a human language. The bible simply does not support the theory that tongues have ceased and that all the tongues spoken of in the bible are speaking about a known human language.
I would be happy to debate this if you like.
Secondly, just because something can be copied or mimicked does not necessarily make the original a fake. There are many who purport to be Christians but are not. We could not use this argument to invalidate those who are true Christians.
Well said, Kirk! Typo “in era” –> “in error”.
There is fake tongs (willful babbling, imitating) and there is real tongs (spirit inspired) and there is, so I have heard, demonic tongs (obsession).
I’m not sure what more can be said than what has been offered in the many posts below – it may be easier if you post your reasons for thinking them to be something other than real language(s). Speaking for myself. I approach the issue through the lens of linguistics, not religion (though obviously I refer to various passages and narratives, etc.).
I am neither a so-called ‘cessationist’ nor am I a so-called ‘continuationist’ (never heard the terms until late last year), nor am I an atheist – As far as tongues ‘ceasing’, since Biblical tongues refer to real language(s) in all cases, obviously they have not ceased.
These languages may have been foreign and unknown to those hearing them, but never to the speaker (whose native language it was).
tongs are very useful, especially when cooking bbq
Hi all
Speaking in tongues as per Acts 2.
When you received tongues did you hear the sound of a mighty rushing wind? Did you see cloves like fire rest upon you? Did tongues come immediately/suddenly ? or were you taught how to pray in tongues?
Did any of the people that received the gift of tongues at Pentecost, teach other believers to speak in tongues? Is this biblical.
Does the bible say its for all believers?
If tongues were only for God to hear, why did all in Acts 2 hear in their own language?
If tongues a heavenly language, why must it be interpreted? Why did Jesus give us an example of the Lords pray? no, tongues.
How can one be edified if one does not know what he is saying?
ABOUT THE SIGN GIFTS CEASING
Paul healed in his early ministry, great healing, handkerchiefs, his shadow ect. What happened close to the end of his life?
. And as for the gift of healing, we read of that Paul could not heal himself “thorn in the flesh” ( Gal 4: 13-15) a co-worker of Paul’s, Epaphroditus, who fell seriously ill during this time (Phil. 2:25-30), could not heal Timothy (1 Tim 5:23) , could not heal Trophimus ( 2 Tim 4:20) and Paul no longer had the gift of healing, and was no longer able to heal as he did only a few years earlier in Acts 28:9. The sign gifts were no longer operating at the time that Paul wrote the Prison Epistles.
IS THERE A REASON HE COULD NOT HEAL? OR DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WHAT WAS SAID IN 1 CORINTHIANS, KNOWLEDGE, PROPHESY AND TONGUES WOULD CEASE?
Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13
“Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
What remained ? Faith Hope and Love
This is what we need today, faith in Jesus Christ, our hope of the Resurrection and LOVE.
When Jesus returns we will only NEED LOVE. WHY because faith and hope are no longer needed as we will be with Christ.
could it be a form of voodoo – i need inof on this matter hun as my frind was using it in myu house and it made me feel uncorftable and i asked her what she was saying – and she said she desont know, ….i watched a vouple of vids on speaking in tonhues and thyey were all in a in a state of confusion……my frinds arm was wtiching as she as spoke in thes tonges…….
Hallo Wendy. There are a lot of religions that have people that speak in tongues. Most notably would be satanist because Lucifer likes to copy God as much as he can. You will have to ask your friend what religion she is. Any satanic religion will mean its not a Godly language. If you believe in and have a relationship with Jesus, simply anoint your home with oil in the name of The Father, The Son(Jesus) and the Holy Spirit to break any curses or spells or whatever evil.
Thank you
Pierre
There is no such thing as a “satanic religion” unless it refers to Satanism proper.
Many of the world’s belief systems/religions make use of glossolalia/tongues; it’s not by far just a Christian phenomenon.
Vodun (a/k/a voodoo) is practiced most notably in Haiti and is derived from indigenous religions of mainly Ghana and Togo. The glossolalia produced is produced no differently than a Christian practitioner.
It sounds as though Wendy’s friend was attempting something of which she had very little knowledge which can be dangerous. As Pierre suggested, if there is some concern; a house blessing can cleanse the house of any negative energies.
Please direct me to where in the bible it states “Heavenly language”? When did Jesus instruct or state you MUST speak in tongues as evidence of the infilling of the spirit to be saved? This is a Pentecostal doctrine and one that started in the early 1900s by Charles Fox Parham. He also believed speaking in tongues to the extent he traveled to another country with the full expectation they would understand him and hear the word of god. No one did. Needless to say he returned to the states dejected but it didn’t stop him preaching his message of speaking in tongues. He is the founding father of modern Pentecostalism and although I recognize and commend followers for their passion, they are being misled by the “infallible” interpretation of the church pastor. Why do so many Pentecostal followers place their faith in one man’s bible interpretation? read if for yourself and decide. Don’t gamble your soul on what someone else believes the bible says and means.
The apostle Paul clearly states at most only 2-3 people should speak in tongues and only when there is someone with the gift of interpretation to translate the message for the benefit of the entire congregation. Otherwise what’s the point? to edify yourself or god? God doesn’t need you to speak in tongues because he understands ALL languages. Logically speaking what would be the point of speaking in tongues if your not glorifying God or spreading the gospel?
Hallo Augustine.
Relevant scripture would be:
1 Corinthians 14:2,23,27-28
1 Corinthians 12:8-11
1 Corinthians 13
1 Corinthians 14
Acts 19:6
Mark 16
1 Corinthians 13:1 speaks of tongues of men and angels. Why is there a distinction if they are the same?
1 Corinthians 14:2 “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit”
How would you explain that?
So how can it be just another earth language if NO one understands them?
Thank you
Pierre
Hallo Augustine
I believe that the Holy Spirit give believers gifts as He wants to as scripture states. No where in the bible does it say you will speak in tongues if you get filled with the Holy Spirit although in some places this seem to happen or get implied. It also don’t specify if it is an earthly language like in Acts 2 or an unknown language as in 1 Corinthians. I know many believers that can speak in tongues and many that can not. In the final paragraph of your post it seems that you 1st accept tongues as a gift and then rejects it. I am not clear on what you believe about tongues is.
Regards
Pierre
Hello Pierre
MY COMMENTS IN CAPITALS
Relevant scripture would be:
1 Corinthians 14:2,23,27-28
1 Corinthians 12:8-11
1 Corinthians 13
1 Corinthians 14
Acts 19:6
Mark 16
1 Corinthians 13:1 speaks of tongues of men and angels. Why is there a distinction if they are the same?
MATHEW 17:20 “ 20“BECAUSEYOU HAVE SO LITTLE FAITH. HE ANSWERED. “FOR TRULY I TELL YOU, IF YOU HAVE FAITH THE SIZE OF A MUSTARD SEED, YOU CAN SAY TO THIS MOUNTAIN, ‘MOVE FROM HERE TO THERE,’AND IT WILL MOVE. NOTHING WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU.” …
PIERRE YOU SHOULD BY NOW HAVE FAITH A LITTLE GREATER THAN A MUSTARD SEED ? IF SO, MOVE A MOUNTAIN, CAN YOU ??
1 Corinthians 14:2 “For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit” How would you explain that? So how can it be just another earth language if NO one understands them?
PIERRE IN CORINTH WAS A REGION OF MULTI CULTURAL POPULATION. IF I AM IN A CONGREGATION AND I SPEAK IN PORTUGUESE, NO GREEK WOULD UNDERSTAND ME, BUT HERE GOES GOD WOULD UNDERSTAN ME, WHY ? GOD KNOWS ALL LANGUAGES
ONE OF THE FIRST QUESTIONS YOU OUGHT TO ASK IS, “WAS IT ADDRESSED TO MEN?” SOMETIMES TODAY, WHEN INTERPRETATIONS ARE GIVEN, THE CONTENT MAKES CLEAR THAT THEY CONSTITUTE A KIND OF EXHORTATION TO THE AUDIENCE. WELL THEN, THAT IS NOT THE GIFT OF TONGUES, BECAUSE, ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD, TONGUES ARE NOT ADDRESSED TO MEN.
Thank you
Mario
Hi, in Mark 16 Jesus did say that ‘these signs shall follow them that believe’ and listed the signs. Jesus didn’t speak in ifs, buts and maybes. Some Christians take Jesus at His word and believe ALL the signs are for ALL believers. Church historians note that there were church leaders who loved to have pre-eminence and denigrated and/or banned any gifts that they themselves didn’t have.
On the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2 it seems that ALL the 120 disciples (not just apostles) spoke in tongues. This would imply the spiritual gifts including tongues were for ALL believers.
Another scripture that would confirm this line of thinking is 1 Corinthians 14:1 where the Apostle Paul encouraged individuals and the church to cultivate ALL the gifts.
14:1 Eagerly pursue and seek to acquire [this] love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts), especially that you may prophesy ([a]interpret the divine will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching). AMPLIFIED BIBLE.
The tongues of angels could be understood as a heavenly language if you look at these Bible translations/paraphrases.
13:1 If I had the gift of being able to speak in other languages without learning them and could speak in every language there is in all of HEAVEN and earth, but didn’t love others, I would only be making noise. THE LIVING BIBLE
13:1 What if I speak in the most elegant languages of people or in the exotic languages of the HEAVENLY messengers, but I live without love? THE VOICE
You are right, there are certainly different ways of looking at, and explaining, the meaning of scriptures and I don’t think the Pentecostal movement has any one dominant leader as there are so many groups. Plus the rise of the Pentecostals isn’t isolated to the 1900s if you read about Holy Ghost revivals and renewals in history. It is also a part of the Reformation that rejected the teachings of a certain denomination that had become corrupt.
I will write something too, for encouragement to others; When I was in the Healing Rooms. They are established in many countries. I got there a huge encouragement in the form of exact words from a song I was, at the time, listening to a lot- beautiful lyrics. Words very poetic, comparing me to a certain flower and more. You know, they pray for you in the H.Rooms in tongues, they first pray in tongues and then they stop and say what they discerned from God as they prayed for me, then they consult with you and try to determine what is the spiritual problem with you. I think this relevant to this topic. :-)
I think you may have heard a teaching on tongues that strays from biblical orthodoxy. Someone familiar with bible doctrine, specifically as it relates to “glossolalia” (speaking in tongues) and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, is not at all surprised with the results of the peer reviewed research you cited above. My goal here is not to argue against these findings, but to show that they are supported by scripture, and to perhaps give you a more complete understanding of what the Bible has to say on this topic so you can examine it more thoroughly. First, it is a common misunderstanding among “cessasionists” (christians who believes tongues ceased in the 1st century) and skeptics that tongues are only supposed to be known human languages. The assumption is that what happened on the Day of Pentecost is what people should expect when speaking in tongues, and the truth is, what happened on the day of Pentecost is very different from what most people are experiencing today when they speak in tongues. In truth, there are five different kinds/purposes of tongues in the Bible. Paul the apostle writes in his first letter to the Corinthians, “If I speak with the tongues of men or of angels…” (1 Cor 13:1). See, in the bible, not all “tongues” are known human lanaguages. Infact, most of the time, when people speak in tongues, they are speaking in what christians would call their “heavenly language” or their “prayer language.” This is what Paul referred to as “tongues of angels.” It is atypical for people who speak in tongues to speak in a known human language, unless the person has the ministry gift of speaking in tongues, or in other very rare circumstances. I personally know of two occasions where this happened. Once was when a former pastor and church acquaintence of mine went to New Orleans after hurricane Katrina to help rebuild. One day while they were there, before starting, they began to pray, and one of them began praying in a tongue. One of the locals happened to overhear the prayer and immediately approached them, complimented the person for speaking perfect Creole, and began asking them questions about God. On another occasion, during a church service that another one of my pastors oversaw, a man began speaking in a strange language that sounded bizarre, almost like animal noises. A woman stood up in the back and asked how it was possible that this man could speak in a language known only to members of a small village in Africa where she was from. Again, it is far more common for someone to speak in an unknown heavenly language than it is for them to speak in a known human language. Praying in those unknown languages is the most common. See Rom 8:26 and Jude 20.
Also, in 1st Cor 14, when Paul says, tongues are a sign for unbelievers, he was talking about tongues WITH interpretation. He was correcting the Corinthians for their overuse of the spiritual gifts. Their error was in failing to understand the purpose of spiritual gifts, which is the edificaiton or building up of the church. I copied the passage below.
1 Cor 14: 1-25
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
To paraphrase what he teaches in that chapter, he basically says, “Stop with all this misuse of the gift of tongues. All people hear is a bunch of babbling and it makes you look ridiculous. No one can understand what you’re saying, so the only person that benefits from you speaking in tongues all the time is you. That’s wrong. From now on, if you do speak out in tongues in front of others, someone must be present who has the gift of interpretation. Then everyone will benefit from the message that gets spoken. In this way, tongues WITH interpretation is similar to prophecy, so when a new person shows up who doesn’t know about any of this, they will believe, because the very secrets of his/her heart will be revealed, and the spiritual message that is spoken will touch them in a profound way.”
So, the same misuse of the gift of tongues that was happening in the 1st century is still happening today. That is why it appears so utterly ridiculous to you, and it should. There is much more I could speak about regarding tongues, but again, my goal is not to argue with you or give you a sermon. I only wanted to bring clarity on two points, so that you can consider what the Bible has to say, and re-examine the topic in light of that.
Your Friend,
Bill
Pentecostal Christian
lay minister and Bible College Student
Paul’s “tongues of angels” is a hyperbole – it is not something that was ever meant to be taken literally.
Tongues fail on every criteria that defines language and multiple “interpretations” for the same glossic string further illustrate that tongues fail even as basic communication. Modern tongues are non-cognitive non-language utterances; free vocalization; they mimic language but upon closer examination, they are simply a facade of language.
All Biblical tongues (if not referring to the actual organ in the mouth) refer to real languages; they may be unknown to the those listening to them (the ‘hearers’) but they are always known by the speaker(s).
To paraphrase the chapter – if you’re speaking your native language at a public gathering and no one else there speaks/understands it, it’s preferable that you pray that you will (eventually) learn enough Greek to translate it yourself (into Greek – the language of Corinth), but in the meantime, you have two choices: use a translator so all may benefit from what you’re saying, but if no one present knows your language well enough to translate into Greek for you, it’s better you just keep silent so as not to add to or create more confusion.
“Tongues” have not ceased – they’re just normal everyday languages.
Ignore the post above (posted 15:49 – I was still writing when it posted. See below
Kavik said: Paul’s “tongues of angels” is a hyperbole – it is not something that was ever meant to be taken literally.
Kavik, you state your opinions as though they are ‘categorically correct’. They are merely opinions. Believe that and you might consider others’ opinions also.
Marchello, of course, everything I say is my opinion, what else could it be? It is not like we are discussion maths here where there is some absolute notion of truth. I think it does not help the discussion if we have to prefix each sentence by “It is my opinion that”.
Perhaps this is true of cessationists (I’m not a cessationist, neither am I a continualist – sp.?). Biblical tongues have not stopped because they are real languages. Pentecost describes xenoglossy, but if you see my comments further below, I don’t think that was at all the case.
Today’s modern tongues are non-cognitive non-language utterances – free vocalization.
There are no ‘heavenly languages’ / ‘tongues of angels’ – Paul was using hyperbole in that verse (as well as many other verses in his letter).
It’s atypical for people who speak in tongues to speak in a known human language because tongues are not language; they’re NC-NLU’s. Modern tongues fail as language on every criteria that defines ‘language’. Due to their multiple ‘interpretations’ for the same glossic string, they fail even by the criteria which defines basic communication. There has, unfortunately, never been a documented case of xenoglossy in modern times; it always seems to be third hand reporting.
A sign for unbelievers – people speaking about God in their own languages with translators rendering what they are saying into the vernacular so all can benefit. Prior to Pentecost, for such teaching, praising, worship, etc. to be done in any language except Hebrew was virtually unthinkable (ecclesiastical diglossia – see various posts below).
What Paul advises in the chapter is simple – if you’re going to show up at a public worship and, during worship, not speak in the vernacular (in the case of Corinth, Greek), something which in a multi-cultural and linguistically diverse city such as Corinth was probably quite common, you should pray that (eventually) you’ll learn enough Greek to be able to translate what you’re saying so all may benefit, but in the meantime you had two choices: either find someone who can translate for you, or, if there isn’t anyone who knows your language well enough to do so, rather than add to the confusion, it’s better you just keep silent.
All references to tongues in the Bible, if not referring to the physical organ, refer to real language(s). These languages may not always be understood by those listening to them (the ‘hearers’), but they are always known to the speaker(s).
There just isn’t anything in Corinthians that can be construed as not a reference to real language(s).
Kavik, I really like your thoughtful posts, but I cannot agree that Paul speaks of real languages in Corinthians 14 when we read “tongues” there. I’d agree that glossolalia are not real languages, but free vocalization. This does not contradict that there are people that interpret them. It is just not a “interpretation” (neither a literal one nor an interpretation in the literal sense), but it is a prayer/prophetic word that is triggered/inspired by someone else’s prayer in tongues. This matches with the study you quote that for one recording of glossolalia one get’s 100 different “interpretations” from 100 different interpreters. I do not see a difference between glossolalia and the “tongues” of the New Testament.
Corinthians 14 makes more sense if you translate “tongues” with “glossolalia” than with “foreign languages”. For instance, if Paul says in verse 2, “for anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no-one understands him” (NIV). This is true of glossolalia, but not of a language that is not Hebrew/Greek. (Well, it could be true if there is just exactly one person for each language—let’s not go into such absurd constructions.) Or, verse 5, “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues”. Why would Paul say that if not “tongues” were a spiritual activity that “edifies” (V.4)? Why would it be important for the Church members to speak foreign languages?, and that being compared to “prophesying” which is definitely a spiritual activity of high esteem in the Bible. Why should people “pray that (eventually)” they “learn enough Greek to be able to translate”, instead of finding a teacher for the Greek language? As if Paul believed that knowledge of the Greek language needs heavenly revelation instead of sitting down and learning the vocabulary!? However, authentic interpretation of glossolalia is by inspiration; you cannot study it in school, it needs to come from “outside” (God)! (Or shall I say “inside” (the Spirit)?)
My mother used to do this during my teenage years. Looking back, it was creepy and disturbing. I am thankful that my adolescent surliness and innate contempt for superstition insulated me from the effects. I can imagine how this sort of narcissistic fantasizing and acting out in a parent could cause some damage to a child.
Many people who speak with tongues do indeed speak in a foreign language such as Latin, German, Spanish, and people who are present who speak and understand that language do know what they’re saying. Unfortunately it sounds like you’ve been exposed to some counterfeits.
There are,unfortunately, no provable cases of xenoglossy as you describe. It would seem easy enough to prove. If such a thing were to happen, why have both parties involved never pursued it further – if for no other reason than to prove to the “nay-sayers” that something is indeed happening here. It’s never been done. Why does it only happen in Pentecostal/Charismatic settings where belief in tongues is prevalent? Surely in a dire situation where communication was critical, it wouldn’t matter what religion both parties were.
Most cases seem to report examples of where it “sounded like” language “X”, same intonation, same tone, etc” – sounded like or definitely was?? Does the one reporting the occurrence know enough of “language X ” to determine if it definitely was or did it just “sound like it” – I tend to think 99% of the time it’s the latter.
That appears to be a genuine study with genuine results. I’m sad to hear you are not a believer anymore. I do not speak with tongues, but I think SOME people genuinely have the gift, although the least of gifts unless they interpret. I’m sold out for Jesus because he died for me and now I get to go to heaven and not hell. I hope you reconsider. -Wayne-
Of course the light doesn’t mean anything to one who doesn’t want to see…those who believe will believe, those who do not believe will not believe…
Sorry I had bo backround or exposure. When I was in my room crying out to the creator of the universe I began to communicate to the invisible God with utterance I had never known. I just knew I was talking to The Creator and that It was amazing. Many signs followed in my life and have ever since. My whole heart, nature, direction changed. I began a relationship with Hearing direction and instruction for everthing in my life. Sometimes for others. Each time, even still it is matched with evidence and reality. Hearing followed by amazing impossibilities. It doesnt matter to me if you believe. But in the same way you could never convince me that my Mother does not exsist, jyst because you have not met her does not have any power to make her untrue. Seeking His Face and Loving/crying out for the Truth has taken me past the barriers of man made religion. I encourage anyone to start there.
I heard there was some research where they sent 100 copies of the same tongues recording to a whole lot of people who said they had the gift of interpretation. Anyone know where I can get hold of that research?
Taken from parts of my study – you can try and Google these names to see if you can come up with an online copy of the original research:
There have been numerous studies done (Samarin (1968), Pattison (1968), Wehr (1996), just to reference a few) which have revealed some damning results and major discrepancies with respect to the interpretation of glossolalia.
In these studies, a string of glossolalia is recorded and played back to several people who are able to interpret tongues. It is a blind test such that interpreters are purposely not grouped all together but kept separate from one another – the idea here is so that each may offer his/her own interpretation without the possible influence from another interpreter. Interpretations given in these instances were quite inconsistent. In one study, they ranged from praying for the health of someone’s children, to praising God for a recent successful church fund-raising event. No two have ever been remotely similar to one another other than that fact that they were either praise related or message related (but never the same underlying “core” message).
One study, conducted by a Frenchman in the late 1990’s, went so far as to present two samples to interpreters; one being a recorded sample of glossolalia obtained at a church service, the other being simply the Pater Noster recited twice through in a very broad Scots. Needless to say, interpretations were offered for both samples (much to the dismay of the Scotsman who recorded the “Oor Faither”).
Some “studies” are less than ‘scientifically conducted’ – Kevin Tierney in his article “Musings on the Charismatic Movement” writes; “I remember another story communicated by the Catholic apologist Gerry M. One time he went to one of these Charismatic sessions, where people were speaking in tongues. Gerry, in his rather typical playful mood, decided to have a little fun. He arose, and spoke in tongues. Those tongues were Old Testament verses in Hebrew, since Mr. M is quite proficient in both Greek and Hebrew. When it came time for prophesy, the “interpretation” didn’t resemble what was spoken in any particular way. While I’m not focusing on the issue of tongue speaking just yet, this is proof right here that the person has no clue whatsoever if what they are hearing is from God. It could simply be made up, and nobody is anymore the wiser. The chance for this fakery only increases when it’s mandated at the beginning that prophesy will, and one could say, must occur, for them to be satisfied that the Holy Spirit is working through them.”
It’s not uncommon to hear such fleshly interpretations in church services either. The Bible gives some clear guidelines for how to determine if an interpretation is authentic or not. For one, the interpretation would not be a message from God to the congregation, but rather a prayer spoken to God by the person speaking in the tongue. Tongues is not God speaking in an unknown language to us, but rather us, speaking in an unknown language to God. Someone who speaks out in a church service with an interpretation like those would/should be corrected.
Best Regards,
Bill
Pentecostal Christian
Lay Minister
Bible College Student
Scripture goes further to say, “So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that your are mad?
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is not interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.”
– (1 Corinthians 14:22-28)
Very briefly, I went to my church for prayer for my broken heart as being mistreated as a step-daughter by my step-father. I didn’t tell the three people that prayed for me what was wrong. In fact, they saw me praying alone as I silently entertained false narratives of my situation in my head leading me to spiral down in a negative, emotional pit hoping that I could somehow get over it. Within moments, I heard them pray in tongues (I had no idea what they were saying and it didn’t make sense to me nor was it helping me), but then one woman translated and said that I was a broken-hearted step-daughter and that God wanted to show me His Fatherly love and replace the orphan spirit with His. I’ve never cried so hard at that moment in a church before.
It wasn’t the fact that they knew what my main issue was that had me crying (thought, as a believer that was a miraculous sign to me), but the fact that they allowed themselves to be a working vessel for God, I felt and heard God’s voice through them. His love touched me and I am thankful to this day that they allowed Him to work through them and do His will.
I hope this helps with your exegesis and hermeneutics claims considering this topic. It’s best to read the content around the verse to get a better understanding of its context and I would encourage you to keep asking questions.
If you’re looking for evidence of speaking in tongues being more than babbling nonsense, consider it’s main purpose: healing and deliverance.
I would consider this an example of the (I really hesitate to use the term “correct” here, but for a lack of a better way to put it…..) correct use of glosolalia, i.e. as a *tool* to aid in the (emotional/spiritual) healing process of a third party.
The important thing to note is that the person being helped/healed is typically a third party; not the practitioner him/her/them self/selves.
In these instances glossolalia is used as a tool to connect to the divine (whether realized it’s simply the tool may be a matter for debate), a message received (either directly or indirectly via an “interpreter”) that is extremely pertinent to this third party’s emotional situation and, as a result, s/he may begin the process of emotional/spiritual healing. This is the purpose of glossolalia in most cultures, i.e. to aid the petitioner in the emotional and/or spiritual healing process.
Though this does happen in the context of Christianity, from all accounts I have read or been told about, this “true/correct” use of glossolalia is a rather rare occurrence. Whether it is rare because most people do not practice glossolalia ‘correctly’ or not, is a matter for further study, but this is a great example of how glossolaia is properly used.
That’s a wonderful testimony! That was tongues and prophecy as opposed to tongues with interpretation. The bible says when we do not know what to pray, the spirit intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. They didn’t know how to pray, because your pain was hidden from them, but they were stirred in their spirit and they prayed in tongues, perhaps not even knowing they were praying for you… but despite not knowing what to pray, the Spirit helped them in their weakness. Then God gave a word of knowledge with a word of prophecy to the person who spoke to you and told you what your problem was (word of knowledge) and what God was going to do for you (word of prophecy). That is a wonderful testimony! It’s super encouraging! Hold onto that and share as often as you have the opportunity!
Best Regards,
Bill
Your brother in Christ
You might be interested in my new book, The Case Against Tongues: Weighing Up the Evidence. It’s free on Smashwords and other online book stores.
I speak (and write) multiple languages – English, Chinese, Japanese and Malay. I can easily ‘speak in tongues’ in any church service instead of faking it.
Hi why would you speak another known language , that not being the language everyone steaks ? Most tongues spoken today are not earthly languages
Religion are at most 70% correct and 30% wrong. While Christianity is not 100% infallible, it is so far the best of all.
Quite interesting. I was a christian for a long time in my life and started to doubt a lot, especially when I saw the rebuttals of a lot of christian apologist videos, scientific explanations for the “unexplainable” and the theory of evolution. This is a really good refutation, today I heard a story from a friend of mine, who is a catholic, that his father and him were in the church and saw a girl that spoke in tongues, precisely in aramaic and his father studied aramaic for a long time in his life(so that´s how he recognised the language) and he said that the girl was 8 years old and she never knew what was aramaic nor her parents and she wasn´t used to access the internet; and so I had to research and see it, and that´s when I found your article, thanks! Now, I would like your help with these doubts I currently have. I was really confused today because of this story but I´m gradually becoming more skeptical. For example, I can´t see evil in masturbating or being gay(I´m not, by the way), like… why would God bother, you know? Anyways… THX A LOT! And kepp it up! Really apreciate it. Oh , by the way, support HitNail youtube channel, it was mostly because of his refutation to a young earth creationist that I became an atheist(or almost, I still have some doubts, so I´m for now an agnostic)
@Alekcey
An interesting story –
To restate, just for the record, I am not an atheist nor a so-called “cessationist” (never heard of the term until just this year). I’m not discouraging the practice of tongues, just the understanding of what it is. What Christian practitioners claim it is, it simply is not.
To your point –
This story is one version of many that are told. It’s sort of attained “urban legend” status in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles. The basic story line goes like this: in a gathering (church service, tent meeting, etc., etc.) some person starts speaking in tongues and there just happens to be this one person in the crowd to recognizes it as a real language and asks the speaker or tells the speaker about it and, of course, the speaker has no clue and has never heard or been exposed to the language they were supposedly speaking.
Coincidentally, the language almost *always* seems to be Aramaic and there’s *always* someone in the crowd who just happens to either speak it, or studied it, etc.and recognizes it as such. In most versions of the story, the person that recognizes it is a Jewish person (i.e. practicing Jew) to just happens to recognize the language. This begs a slew of questions, the least of which is why a practicing Jew would be attending a Pentecostal?charismatic service in the first place, Was it Aramaic, or did it just ‘sound’ like Aramaic. What languages in any form or no matter how infrequent was this girl exposed to? Typically glossolalia only contains those sounds found in a speaker’s own native language. If that language is English, Aramaic contains several sounds not found in English.
I don’t mean to cast doubts. While in theory, yes, it’s a possibility, cases like this (which seem to be rather common in Pentecostal?charismatic circles) are never backed up by any solid proof and amounts to, unfortunately, just hearsay. It would be a relatively simple thing to prove either way. It’s too bad as a solid case would be fantastic to study and could theoretically lay some groundwork for further study!
Actually I became a christian again, so.. nevermind lol
Just forget everyhting I said about being skeptical.
As a young girl, I prayed every night for the gift of tongues. Eventually crying myself to sleep because God had forsaken me took its place. Now I am a grown woman, no-longer-Southern-Pentecostal, practicing Buddhist. I thought you might want to read about studies done more recently than almost 50 years ago. While I have many issues with certain conclusions, the science is fascinating and for me, was very surprising. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/health/07brain.html
Yeah, this is the well-known study done by the Univ. of Pen. I’ve read it; the results are very inconclusive and could be skewed to support either argument. I would argue that the language producing centers of the brain are not all that engaged in the production of glossolalia or “speaking in tongues”, simply because it’s not language; it’s random free vocalization. You don’t have to think about what you’re doing like language, you just do it. A bit like humming a random made-up tune; you don’t think about what you’re humming/singing, you just do it.
Yes it is meaningless to those who hear and cannot translate, just as the Bible state. Fact 1. It is not unknown to God, just as the Bible states. . Fact 2. So ask God if He understands tongues and you can confirm this.
Biblical “tongues” are, in fact, real languages – on Pentecost, Aramaic and Greek, and in Corinth various languages due to the city being a multicultural port city on two seas. So, in that respect, even if other people could not understand the (real) language used by the speaker, God certainly could. Modern ‘tongues’/glossolalia is not real language – glossolalia/tongues mimics language, but is just a facade of language. In and of itself it is meaningless – simply random free vocalization.
You might be interested in my new book, The Case Against Tongues: Weighing Up the Evidence. It’s free on Smashwords and other online book stores. I’m a new author and looking for people who might be interested in this topic. If you do read it, I’d love to hear what you think.
I enjoy praying in tongues. It has been for at least 5 years. I found this article very informative. Thank you for writing this.
Hay Darryl, please do not stop praying in tongues.
Some “skeptical” believe they can explain God in a scientific way.
Using fancy words to persuade/deceive Believers into thinking Christianity is a false religion.
You are experiencing the Holy Spirit’s power when praying in tongues. What a Blessing, what Joy.
Do not believe in the Words of man. Believe the Words of God. (in that way you will never be deceived)
1 Corinthians 1:18
“The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.”
Sorry, the bible was written by hundreds of different HUMAN MEN throughout the last 1,650 years, making it the words of MEN, with absolutely zero evidence it came from “God”
I can prove it is
If you’ll study this out… what happened at Pentecost was the voice of many people or waters. They heard the message in the language of those that spoke, but understood it in their own native tongue. I agree with you 100% that what is going on now is foolishness… it is witchcraft. Another disagreement I have with that letter (Acts) is that they do one thing but give reference to Joel of the old testament which mentions nothing of tongues.
See my posts of 18. May re tongues at Pentecost – simply Aramaic and Greek spoken by the Apostles instead of the more culturally correct (and expected ) Hebrew. Apostles spoke both Greek and Aramaic.
John what you wrote is short but excellent and to the point. You are a clear and excellent thinker/teacher for that reason we hope you Skype, we want to meet you and talk to you face to face. We live in Argentina at the tip of South America. But we can meet and converse for FREE using Skype. Our Skype address is: patagoniaratajczaks
please do studu the second epistle of paul to the chuch at corinth the 14th chapter
You might be interested in my new book, The Case Against Tongues: Weighing Up the Evidence. It’s free on Smashwords and other online book stores. I’m a new author and looking for people who might be interested in this topic. If you do read it, I’d love to hear what you think.
Hello my name is michelle .my mom used to try to make me speak in toungs .not for me .i also think its from the devil .and she is crazy .judjumental.greedy unforgiving but thinks she is so rightouss .and says the devil made her that way…. I aak God to hell me forgive her. And try to move forwatd and have A relationship .it’s so hard
Hello Michelle. Your mom can not make you speak in tongues. It is a gift from the Holy Spirit as is healing, prophesy and many others. The Holy Spirit give them to whom He wants and sometimes for certain occasions. As you can see from my and Mario’s discussions there are many different views regarding the Gifts of the Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness is unfortunately totally up to us but the Holy Spirit will assist you since He lives in born again believers.
My daughter have a favourite saying when somebody hurts her or a friends feelings….’build a bridge and get over it’. In my opinion that is pretty much how forgiveness works. We live in a broken world with broken people and we will get people that hurt, disappoint, backstab and do numerous other things to us as long as we live this life. We will also do this to others even unintentionally. I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit will assist you in forgiving her but also pray for her for understanding of what she is doing wrong to upset and offend you.
You can also explain to your mom that a born again christian is suppose to become more like Jesus the longer you are in a relationship with Him. You will always be sinfull and do sin but it should become less as the Holy Spirit helps you resist it. Idealy you should see an improvement yearly on what you use to do and what you do at the end of that year.
Regards
Pierre
I must respectfully disagree with Pierre with respect to tongues – unfortunately from what I have seen and from what I have read from various people, “tongues” can indeed be a forced experience. People put in a situation where they are more or less forced to speak something….anything, so long as it doesn’t sound like English (or whatever the person’s native language is). It seems in many cases to be peer pressure at it’s absolute worse case scenario. It sounds like you have perhaps unfortunately undergone a similar situation.
Hallo Kavik. I have to agree with you. Huge damage is unfortunately done by religious people making speaking in tongues a proof of the Holy Spirit’s infilling and trying to make other christians speak in tongues. I was trying to say that to Michelle” Your mom can not make you speak in tongues”. I see speaking in tongues as one of the many gifts of the Holy Spirit that He gives to who He wants when and as He wants. Not everyone gets the same gifts or all of them.
I hope I explained it better.
Regards
Pierre
Ah, okay – now i get it – thanks for the clarification.
Hallo Mario. I will be out of town till 19 June. We can chat again when I am back.
Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
These signs shall accompany THOSE WHO BELIEVE….. in my book that means all True christians…
Regards
Pierre
Enjoy your time out.
Firstly my correction there is I believe 600 million “Christians” that speak in tongue.
1) Firstly the old manuscripts have not got Mark 16: 9-20. Interesting but even so if it is correct lets look at verse 13 they did not believe, verse 14 Jesus rebuked them for not believing them that told them, verse 15 Jesus said to them .. verse 17 and these signs will accompany those that believe… Now who were the unbelievers the Apostles themselves as they were even rebuked by Jesus. Verse 7 interesting tell the disciples and Peter, why and Peter he is the one that denied Jesus 3 times.
2) If everyone did all the above signs then there would be telling the difference between the apostles and ordinary people.2 Corinthians 12:12 ….. demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIRACLES.
3) So if these signs are for today WHY do the tongue speaking people NOT also heal people ? If it is for today then that person should have able to do all what the signs, not just the easiest one to counterfeit.
So if verse were not in the bible as it was not in the earliest translations, would one still think that they can do these signs? even after the word says they will cease? If they did not cease when will the cease ?
Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:” If everyone could do the signs miracles and wonders WOULD IT MEAN ANYTHING ? NO , it had be something special.
Acts 2:43, “Fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles [not through the Christians in general].”
Acts 5:12, “Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles [not by the hands of all the Christians].”
Acts 14:3, “So they [Paul and Barnabas] remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”
Acts 15:12, “And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles [as though this were something remarkable, not something being done daily by average Christians].”
So it looks like Luke intends for us to see signs and wonders in the book of Acts as having a special role in the ministry of the apostles. This suggests that neither then nor today were signs and wonders intended to be a normal part of church ministry or evangelism. They were intended to vindicate the authority of the APOSTLES AND JESUS.
Hallo Mario.
Here is another example of my point:
1 Corinthians 12:12-31…12 Brothers and sisters, I want you to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. 2 You know that at one time you were unbelievers. You were somehow drawn away to worship statues of gods that couldn’t even speak. 3 So I want you to know that no one who is speaking with the help of God’s Spirit says, “May Jesus be cursed.” And without the help of the Holy Spirit no one can say, “Jesus is Lord.”
4 There are different kinds of gifts. But they are all given to believers by the same Spirit. 5 There are different ways to serve. But they all come from the same Lord. 6 There are different ways the Spirit works. But the same God is working in all these ways and in all people.
7 The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all. 8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.
12 There is one body, but it has many parts. But all its many parts make up one body. It is the same with Christ. 13 We were all baptized by one Holy Spirit. And so we are formed into one body. It didn’t matter whether we were Jews or Gentiles, slaves or free people. We were all given the same Spirit to drink. 14 So the body is not made up of just one part. It has many parts.
15 Suppose the foot says, “I am not a hand. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 16 And suppose the ear says, “I am not an eye. So I don’t belong to the body.” By saying this, it cannot stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, how could it hear? If the whole body were an ear, how could it smell? 18 God has placed each part in the body just as he wanted it to be. 19 If all the parts were the same, how could there be a body? 20 As it is, there are many parts. But there is only one body.
21 The eye can’t say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 In fact, it is just the opposite. The parts of the body that seem to be weaker are the ones we can’t do without. 23 The parts that we think are less important we treat with special honor. The private parts aren’t shown. But they are treated with special care. 24 The parts that can be shown don’t need special care. But God has put together all the parts of the body. And he has given more honor to the parts that didn’t have any. 25 In that way, the parts of the body will not take sides. All of them will take care of one another. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it. If one part is honored, every part shares in its joy.
27 You are the body of Christ. Each one of you is a part of it. 28 First, God has placed apostles in the church. Second, he has placed prophets in the church. Third, he has placed teachers in the church. Then he has given to the church miracles and gifts of healing. He also has given the gift of helping others and the gift of guiding the church. God also has given the gift of speaking in different kinds of languages. 29 Is everyone an apostle? Is everyone a prophet? Is everyone a teacher? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in languages they had not known before? Do all explain what is said in those languages? 31 But above all, you should want the more important gifts.
I can keep giving you scripture that includes every believer in getting gifts, but different ones as the Holy Spirit deems necessary.
Please give me 1 scripture that sais gifts are ONLY for prophets.
Regards
Pierre
Hallo Mario.
As per your previous answer:
1) Firstly the old manuscripts have not got Mark 16: 9-20. Interesting but even so if it is correct lets look at verse 13 they did not believe, verse 14 Jesus rebuked them for not believing them that told them, verse 15 Jesus said to them .. verse 17 and these signs will accompany those that believe… Now who were the unbelievers the Apostles themselves as they were even rebuked by Jesus. Verse 7 interesting tell the disciples and Peter, why and Peter he is the one that denied Jesus 3 times.
2) If everyone did all the above signs then there would be telling the difference between the apostles and ordinary people.2 Corinthians 12:12 ….. demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIRACLES.
3) So if these signs are for today WHY do the tongue speaking people NOT also heal people ? If it is for today then that person should have able to do all what the signs, not just the easiest one to counterfeit.
So if verse were not in the bible as it was not in the earliest translations, would one still think that they can do these signs? even after the word says they will cease? If they did not cease when will the cease ?
Acts 2:22 “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:” If everyone could do the signs miracles and wonders WOULD IT MEAN ANYTHING ? NO , it had be something special.
Acts 2:43, “Fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles [not through the Christians in general].”
Acts 5:12, “Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles [not by the hands of all the Christians].”
Acts 14:3, “So they [Paul and Barnabas] remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”
Acts 15:12, “And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles [as though this were something remarkable, not something being done daily by average Christians].”
So it looks like Luke intends for us to see signs and wonders in the book of Acts as having a special role in the ministry of the apostles. This suggests that neither then nor today were signs and wonders intended to be a normal part of church ministry or evangelism. They were intended to vindicate the authority of the APOSTLES AND JESUS.
You can not assume according to what 600 million christian’s do or don’t do what the Holy Spirit can or can not do. How many of those 600 million do you personally know and know form personal experience what they can and can not do?
If you actually read my previous bible quote you will see that the Holy Spirit give to believers what, when and where He wants.
And everything will cease – even this earth we live on. There will be no need for any spiritual gifts in heaven or the new earth.
Regards Pierre
hi Pierre
Please give me 1 scripture that sais gifts are ONLY for prophets.
WE WERE TALKING ABOUT MARK 16. IF WE SAY IT IS FOR ALL BELIEVERS EVEN TODAY THEN WE HAVE A PROBLEM, DO YOU AND I HEAL AT WILL WITH THE SIGN GIFT OF HEALING?
EXPLAINED BELOW, PLEASE SEE MARK 16:9-20 SUMMARY, IN SHORT IF IT IS STILL FOR EVERY BELIEVER TODAY, WHY BELIEVERS NOT HAVING THE GIFT OF SPEAKING IN NUMEROUS EARTHLY LANGAUGES AND HEALING PEOPLE INSTANTLY ?
You can not assume according to what 600 million christian’s do or don’t do what the Holy Spirit can or can not do. How many of those 600 million do you personally know and know form personal experience what they can and can not do?
MARK 16: SAYS ALL THAT BELIEVE CAN DO ALL THESE THINGS. SO HAVE THE 600 MILION CHRISTIANS BELIEVERS THESE GIFTS, IF NOT ARE THEY “UNBELIEVERS” ? AS THEY DO NOT HAVE THE GIFT.
I TRIED TO FIND HOW MANY CHRISTIANS SPEAK IN TONGUES AND AN ARTICLE SAID I QUOTE “Today, there are more than 600 million charismatic-Pentecostal believers worldwide, the second-largest group of Christians after Catholics. Pentecostals and charismatic churches are by no means a small, fringe movement; on the contrary, they form the fastest-growing religious movement in the world. The gift of tongues is not reserved for a select few.”
I AM NOT SAYING THAT WE KNOW WHO DO OR DO NOT, THE POINT I WAS MAKING WAS THAT YOU MENTIONED IN EARLIER COMMENT THAT SO MANY TONGUE SPEAKING CHRISTIANS CAN NOT BE WRONG. YOUR QUOTE ”You are saying that hundreds of thousands of Christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong”.
SO I HAD MENTIONED 60 MILLION. SO I AM CORRECTING IT AS THERE ARE SO MANY MORE.
If you actually read my previous bible quote you will see that the Holy Spirit give to believers what, when and where He wants.
CORRECT MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS ALSO SAYS THE SAME. NOT ALL GET SPEAKING IN TONGUES (WHY THE CHURCHES PRAYING FOR PEOPLE TO RECEIVE TONGUES? IS IT NOT A GIFT GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT AS HE WILLS?) NOT ALL GET THE SAME GIFT. NOT EVERYONE IS THE FOOT, OR EYE,OR NECK ECT.
And everything will cease – even this earth we live on. There will be no need for any spiritual gifts in heaven or the new earth.
YES EVERY THING MAY CEASE BUT THERE ARE THINGS THAT CEASE IN STAGES. GOOD EXAMPLE IS US GETTING OLDER AND DYING. JESUS GENERATION HAS CEASED. SO WHEN WE READ THAT THE SIGN GIFTS OF TONGUES, PROPHECY AND KNOWLEDGE WILL COME TO AN END ? WHAT REMAINED ? FAITH HOPE LOVE. SO AFTER THESE WHAT REMAINS L O V E WHICH REMAINS FOREVER.
Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
These signs shall accompany THOSE WHO BELIEVE….. in my book that means all True christians… You can not assume according to what 600 million christian’s do or don’t do what the Holy Spirit can or can not do. How many of those 600 million do you personally know and know form personal experience what they can and can not do?
YOU SAID THAT THESE SIGNS ARE FOR EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES, SO THEN THESE SIGNS SHOULD ACCOMPANY ALL WHO BELIEVES IN THE GOSPAL ? IF WE ARE OUT PREACHING THE GOSPAL THESE SIGNS SHOULD BE PRESENT. ARE YOU AS A TONGUE SPEAKER EXPERIENCING THESE GIFTS ?
ARE YOU HEALING THE SICK WITH IMMEDIATEL RESULTS OR ANYONE IN YOUR CHURCH?
CAN A SICK BROTHER IN HOSPITAL JUST CALL A GIFTED BROTHER AND HE WILL WALK OUT OF THE HOSPITAL IMMEDIATLY? WHAT A TESTOMONEY FOR THE WORLD TO SEE, BELIEVERS WALKING OUT OF THEIR SICK BEDS AND HOSPITALS.
IS IT NOT AMASING THAT THROUGH THE LAST 2000 YEARS PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONVERTED BELIEVING THE WORD OF GOD, AND NON OF THESE SIGNS SEEM TO HAVE APPEARED OR FOLLOWED THEM ?
IF THE VERSES ARE CORRECT TO YOUR INTERPRETATION, SHOULD THESE SIGNS NOT BE EVERYWHERE?
DO THE “BORN AGAIN” BELIEVERS IN YOUR FELLOWSHIP HAVE THESE SIGN GIFTS ? DO YOU HAVE THE SIGN GIFTS ? ARE ALL BEING HEALED AROUND YOU, ARE YOU ALL SPEAKING IN NEW TONGUE(S) MANY DIFFERENT EARTHLY LANGUAGES, ARE YOU CASTING OUT DEMONS ECT.ECT.
THESE VERSES IN MARK 16:9-20 TO ME ARE NOT ORIGIONAL, THEY SHOULD NOT BE THERE. EVEN IF THEY ARE THERE AND IF YOU READ MY LAST COMMENTS THE “UNBELIEVERS” WERE THE APOSTLES. JESUS SAID TO THEM ” THOSE WHO BELIEVE” REFERING TO HIS APOSTLES not all believers. THEY CERTAINLY HAD THE SIGN GIFTS.
If you actually read my previous bible quote you will see that the Holy Spirit give to believers what, when and where He wants.
And everything will cease – even this earth we live on. There will be no need for any spiritual gifts in heaven or the new earth
WHY WAS PAUL MINISTRY OF HEALING SO POWERFUL, THEN TOWARDS THE END OF HIS MINISTRY HE COULD NOT HEAL HIMSELF, TIMOTHY, TROPHIMUS AND SO FORTH. INTERESTING WHERE THE GIFTS FADING AWAY ?
TOTALLY AGREE YES THE HOLY SPIRIT DID GIVE THE SIGN GIFTS TO WHOM HE PLEASED. BUT AS WE READ THURTHER WHEN PAUL WAS WRITING CORINTHIANS HE ONLY HAD PART KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY. THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKING IN PAUL, HE WROTE THE OTHER BOOKS OF THE BIBLE AFTER CORITHIANS HE WAS GIVEN NEW PROPHECY AND FORESIGHT. WE SEE FROM 2 CORINTHIANS AND HEBREWS THE SIGN GIFTS WERE ALREADY WRITTEN IN PAST TENSE.
AS WE READ IN CORITHIANS PAUL SAID WE ARE LIKE BABIES, WE SEE IN THE GLASS DIMLY, BUT AS HE WROTE THE OTHER BOOKS MORE REVELATION WAS REVEALED. THIS GOT TO THE STAGE WHERE IN REVELATION SAYS THAT WE ARE NOW FULLY EQUIPED, WE ARE NOW MATURE, WE CAN SEE CLEARLY AS THE SCRIPTURE NOW FULLY FULFILLED “IT THE PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY”. WE ARE NOW NOT THROWN AROUND AS WHEN WE WERE BABYS AS WE HAVE ALL KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY.
THAT’S WHY THE BIBLE IS FOR CORRECTION, REPROOF AND NOTHING CAN BE ADDED OR TAKEN AWAY. SO WHEN REVELATION WAS WRITTEN WE HAVE ANOTHER THING THAT HAS CEASED, THE CONTINUAL WRITING OF THE WORD. WE ALSO KNOW THE OLD TESTAMENT SACRIFIES CAME TO AN END WHEN THE TEMPLE WAS DISTROYED.
THINGS DO NOT COME TO AN END ONLY WHEN JESUS RETURNS. THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT ARE CEASING EVERYDAY.
JUST REFERING TO MARK 16. IF WE ACCEPT IT AS TRUTH THEN WE SHOULD GET CONTEXT
” The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.” 2 Corinthians 12:12
” how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.” Hebrews 2:3-4.
WERE NOT THESE SIGN GIFTS FOR CONFIRMATION, AUTHENTICATION AND AFFIRMATION ?
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know ” Acts 2:22
THIS WAS PROOF THAT THE ONE PERFORMING THE MIRACLES SPOKE FROM GOD.
THERE ARE NUMEROUS SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THESE SIGN GIFTS WERE TEMPORARY ?
” how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it WAS CONFIRMED to us by those who heard, Hebrews 2:3
AS MENTIONED BEFORE THE MAIN VERB IS PAST TENSE “WAS CONFIRMED”, SIGNS WONDERS AND MIRACLES WERE ALREADY REFERRED TO IN THE PAST TENSE AT THE TIME OF WRITING HEBREWS.
AS MENTIONED IN MY PREVIOUS REPLY. IN 1 AND 2 CORINTHIANS TONGUES, KNOWLEDGE AND PROPHECY WOULD CEASE. LEAVING ONLY FAITH. HOPE. AND LOVE. WE KNOW FAITH AND HOPE WILL CEASE AT JESUS RETURN BUT LOVE LASTS FOREVER.
Just like the manna ceased when Israel entered the land of promise after forty years of transition, so spiritual gifts ended ? If not why do you and I not heal people ?
NOT LIKE TODAY SOME GO TO A CRUSADE AND GO TO THE FRONT FOR HEALING ” . some say that they do not have enough faith some say MAYBE THEY WILL BE HEALED OR NOT “.
I WATCHED A WORLD WIDE PROPHET HEALER, PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD GO TO NIGERIA FOR THEIR HEALING. I KNOW MY MOM FRIEND WHO TOOK HIS WIFE THERE 3 TIMES AND SHE WAS NOT HEALED FROM CANCER. LOTS OF RUGBY PLAYERS HAVE BEEN THERE AND NOT HEALED. WHAT WAS AMASING FOR ME IN THE SERVICE; THE PASTOR HANDED OUT NUMEROUS FREE WHEEL CHAIRS FOR THE SICK. EVERYONE GOES THERE FOR HEALING BUT ARE GIVEN WHEEL CHAIRS?
TO CONCLUDE IF MARK 16 AND THE SIGN GIFTS LIKE TONGUES WERE FOR ONE TO EDIFY THEMSELVES AND SPEAK TO GOD PRIVATELY AND HEAL.
AFTER THE BOOKS OF THE CORINTHIANS WHY IS TONGUES NOT MENTIONED AS A GIFT OF THE SPIRIT ?
WHY DO THE REQUIREMNTS OF PASTORS AND DECEANS NOT REQUIRE TONGUES AND HEALINGS? WHY IS THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR PASTORS AND DEACONS ? DO THEY NOT NEED THESE SIGN GIFTS MORE THAN THE CONGREGATION ? 1 TIM 3.
IF YOU ARE READING THIS AFTER YOUR TIME OUT. I HOPE YOU HAD A RELAXING AND A BLESSED TIME.
REGARDS
Mario
Hallo Mario. Trip postponed till Sunday.
A lot of your answers I can not answer. I only have scripture, as I refuse to assume anything about The Father, Jesus or the Holy Spirit based on any actions of people, what stuff looks like, what people do, how the world works etc. Have a look at youtube and you will find thousands of healings, prophesy, tongues, interpretations, exorsisms. Unfortunately Satan copy cat God in everything he can so satanist do just about everything christians can do. This is where the gift of discernment comes in. Do you not think Satan wants to discredit The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirirt in any way he can?
Of course we can not heal at will..we are not God and we do not know if there is a reason why some one is sick…..that is why the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills and when he wills….some are permanent in some people and some is only for certain occasions… – the Holy Spirit decides – clearly stated in scripture.. many of which I quoted in previous discussions.
Lets discuss 1 point at a time with scripture to back up our discussion.
Your quote ” THE SIGNS OF AN APOSTLE WERE THE SIGN GIFTS 2 Corinth 12; 12 “Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”
You said at the beginning of our discussion ” only prophets had these gifts”, and they do not exist today(healing, tongues and prophesy)
I gave you many scriptures where the Holy Spirit gives this as He wants to anyone willing to receive it.
Some are pemanent and some is only for certain occasions.( We will get to this as a point later on)
You have not given me any scripture yet that sais these gifts were ONLY for apostles.
Acts 19:2 to 7. (These were not apostles since Jesus was already gone to heaven.)
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Please quote scripture if you make a point. Scripture is The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirits word and we can not project our own failures or understandings onto how They work and what They do and can do.
You are using an awefull lot of your perceptions of the world and what people do and do not do as “evidence”. I can not explain to you why so many christians fail to live up to what is available to them. That does not mean that every single christian fail at that. Even is 0,1% get it right of your 600 million that is still 600 000 awesome christians out there. Maybe non you know but I definately know and have met a few.
Regards
Pierre
HI PIERRE
I AGREE LETS TAKE A POINT AT A TIME AND DISCUSS IT THOUGHLY AND THEM MOVE UNTO THE NEXT POINT .
Please give me 1 scripture that sais gifts are ONLY for prophets.
WE KNOW THAT THE SIGN GIFTS IN ACTS WERE FOR CERTAIN BELIEVERS AND GIVEN AT THE DESCRECTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
PLEASE NOTE WE ARE SPEAKING HERE ABOUT MARK 16. WE ARE ACCEPTING THESE VERSES AS THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.
SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT THE GIFTS WERE FOR THEM THAT “BELIEVE” HOW MANY TIMES DID THE APOSTLES NOT BELIEVE IN THIS CHAPTER 16? VERSE 14 SPEAKING TO THE APOSTLES AND REPRIMANDING THEM FOR THEIR UNBELIEVE ? VERSE 19 AFTERWARDS THE APOSTLES WENT OUT AND PREACHED, AND THE LORD WAS WORKING “WITH THEM (APOSTLES)”CONFIRMING HIS WORD.
LOOKING AT CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURES BELOW, IF THE SIGNS WERE FOR EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT BELIEVES, HOW WOULD ONE DEFFERENTIATE A NORMAL BELIEVER TO THAT OF APOSTLES AND JESUS AS PER THE UNDERLYING SCRIPTURES. ?
” The signs of a “TRUE APOSTLE” were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.” 2 Corinthians 12:12
“Men of Israel, listen to these words: JESUS the Nazarene, a man ATTESTED TO YOU BY GOD with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know ” Acts 2:22
Acts 2:43 “ Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs PERFORMED BY THE APOSTLES”.
Acts 2:43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs PERFORMED BY THE APOSTLES”.
THERE ARE SO MANY MORE SCRIPTURES IN THIS REGARD, WERE NOT THESE SIGN GIFTS FOR CONFIRMATION, AUTHENTICATION AND AFFIRMATION OF JESUS AND THE APOSTLES?
IF YOU SAY THESE ARE FOR EVERY BELIEVER TODAY. CAN YOU THINK OF A SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS REALLY EXPERIENCED “ALL” THESE MIRACLES.
SIGNS AND WONDERS WERE TO FOLLOWED THEM THAT BELIEVE, NOT THE BELIEVER FOLLOWING AFTER THE SIGNS ?
SIGNS AND WONDERS AND MIRACLES ARE NOT FOR THE CHRISTIANS THAT ALREADY BELIEVE, THEY ACCOMPANIED THE GOSPAL AND WERE DONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE UNBELIEVERS TO HAVE THEM BELIEVE IN THE MESSAGE.
REGARDS
mARIO
Hallo Mario.
Do you actually read the scripture I quote? Here is another:
Acts 2:17… 17‘- In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.…
Please explain to me how you interpret these scriptures.
Regards
Pierre
HI PIERRE
Do you actually read the scripture I quote? Here is another:
Acts 2:17… 17‘- In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people; your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out of My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.…
Please explain to me how you interpret these scriptures.
CAN WE START WITH VERSE 16 “16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
SO WE SEE THAT THIS HAPPENED AS WAS SPOKEN BY THE PROPHET JOEL
JOEL 2:28-32
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.”
THIS IS THE PROPHECY THAT PETER SAID WAS FULFILLED. WE SEE PETER
QUOTES A SECTION NOT JUST A COUPLE OF VERSES. THUS HE SAYS THAT THE WHOLE PROPHECY WAS FULFILLED NOT JUST A PART. AS HE SAYS “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel” (Acts 2:16).
PETER KNEW HE WAS LIVING IN THE LAST DAYS.
THEY WERE IN THE LAST DAYS. 70 AD. THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL, NO MORE TEMPLE FOR SACRIFIES. ECT.
THE PROPHECEY WAS ABOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH NOT JUST ISRAEL. ALL PEOPLE THAT PUT THEIR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.
THE END TIMES IN VARIOUS SCRIPTURES MEAN DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS. THE “LAST DAYS” DO NOT ALWAYS REFER TO JESUS END TIME RETURN.
Hi mario, I think you have a problem with your caps-lock key. Maybe get it fiixed before continuing this discussion. Best regards
Hi aaquadr
I use capitals to differenciate the difference from someons comments ro my answer to him.
It makes the reply much easier to response and understand. The normal script is the persons comments the my capital letters answers the persons comments. Read my latest comments for clarity.
Thanks for the comment it might help others that read our comments and not get confused.
Hi Mario,
In online culture, capital letters are considered “shouting”. I would not like to be shouted at in this way. The usual convention for quoting someone else’s statement is to use the “bird tracks”, like
This way, you can distinguish your own statements from other’s.
The usual convention for quoting someone else’s statement is to use the “bird tracks”, like
> This is someone else’s
> quoted statement, which
> does not reflect my opinion.
Is this correct ?
>The usual convention for quoting someone else’s statement is to use the “bird tracks”, like
This way, you can distinguish your own statements from other’s.>
do we use > for all three of the above ? how do we know which of the 3 are implied ?
example
>Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”>
What does mean to you above mean to you ?
or is it done this way ?
> This is someone else’s > Mark 16…15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well”
Hi Mario, sorry my example did not work, as the message gets reformatted by this webpage so the line breaks a gone. Maybe better:
(Separated by line breaks.)
Mario it’s sad that you wrestle the scriptures as you contradict yourself.
Mario said June 5, 2016 at 17:09 “We do believe the old Testament and the WHOLE of Gods Word.”
Then Mario said June 10, 2016 (emphasis his) PLEASE NOTE WE ARE SPEAKING HERE ABOUT MARK 16. WE ARE ACCEPTING THESE VERSES AS THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.
<< Mario, this is a great dishonor to the Word of God! It is clear from this comment that you DO NOT believe the WHOLE of God's Word. It was included in the King James Version published in 1611, over 400 years ago. The passage has been hotly debated for decades and REMAINS in most versions. Just because it was not included in the oldest manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) doesn't mean it wasn't included in the original versions – of which none remain.
If you start questioning the authenticity of Bible passages you are heading down a slippery slope.
But wait didn't you also say that the Canon and the Word of God was 'perfect'?
Hi
2 Timothy 3:16-17New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Mario it’s sad that you wrestle the scriptures as you contradict yourself.
>Mario said June 5, 2016 at 17:09 “We do believe the old Testament and the WHOLE WORD of Gods Word.”
>Lets look at Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. As the oldest manuscripts are known to be the most accurate because there were fewer generations of copies from the original autographs (i.e., they are much closer in time to the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark
.
In addition, the fourth-century church fathers Eusebius and Jerome noted that almost all Greek manuscripts available to them lacked vv. 9–20, although they doubtless knew those other endings existed. In the second century, Justin Martyr and Tatian knew about other endings. Irenaeus, also, in A.D. 150 to 200, must have known about this long ending because he quotes verse 19 from it. So, the early church fathers knew of the added verses, but even by the fourth century, Eusebius said the Greek manuscripts did not include these endings in the originals.
The internal evidence from this passage also casts doubt on Mark as the author. For one thing, the transition between verses 8 and 9 is abrupt and awkward. The Greek word translated “now” that begins v. 9 should link it to what follows, as the use of the word “now” does in the other synoptic Gospels. However, what follows doesn’t continue the story of the women referred to in v. 8, describing instead Jesus’ appearing to Mary Magdalene. There’s no transition there, but rather an abrupt and bizarre change, lacking the continuity typical of Mark’s narrative. The author should be continuing the story of the women based on the word “now,” not jumping to the appearance to Mary Magdalene. Further, for Mark to introduce Mary Magdalene here as though for the very first time (v. 9) is odd because she had already been introduced in Mark’s narrative (Mark 15:40, 47, 16:1), another evidence that this section was not written by Mark.
>Then Mario said June 10, 2016 (emphasis his) PLEASE NOTE WE ARE SPEAKING HERE ABOUT MARK 16. WE ARE ACCEPTING THESE VERSES AS THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE WHICH SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN.
I am not the one that said that the verses 9-20 were not in the original scripts . Read above article and as we see in most bibles that these verses are in italic or they INSCRIPT [SHORTER ENDING OF MARK} AND [ LONGER ENDING OF MARK] why would they be? Therefore some end in verse 8, others include 9-20.
So yes even if they were not supposed to be there, but I have it in my bible. That is why lets accept as true.
<< Mario, this is a great dishonor to the Word of God! It is clear from this comment that you DO NOT believe the WHOLE of God's Word. It was included in the King James Version published in 1611, over 400 years ago. The passage has been hotly debated for decades and REMAINS in most versions. Just because it was not included in the oldest manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus) doesn't mean it wasn't included in the original versions – of which none remain.
PLEASE READ THE ABOVE ARTICLE AND IF ITS 400 YEARS AGO, IT DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS ORIGIONALLY IN THE ORIGIONAL MANUSCRIPTS. BUT AS I SAID WE ACCEPT IT AS BEING THERE AND INTERPRET IT AS IT STANDS.
If you start questioning the authenticity of Bible passages you are heading down a slippery slope.
I AM NOT QUESTIONING THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BIBLE. I AM SAYING IF ITS IN THE BIBLE LETS ABIDE BY IT.
But wait didn't you also say that the Canon and the Word of God was 'perfect'?
YES THE WORD OF GOD IS PERFECT
The Bible is a reflection of its Author. All books are. The Bible was written by God Himself as He worked through human authors in a process called “inspiration.” “All scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). See also 2 Peter 1:21 and Jeremiah 1:2.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Seem to be veering off topic here a bit – from glossolalia to general “gifts of the Spirit”.
If one interprets “tongues” as a gift – the gift may simply be the ability to break free of traditional customs (i.e. in this case ecclesiastical diglossia) and spread the word in local vernaculars without fear of reprisals.
I don’t believe ‘tongues’ was ever described as a ‘gift’ though, so much as a ‘manifestation’ of the Spirit.
Nowadays, translating religious texts into multiple languages doesn’t merit a second thought, but at one time, it was simply unheard of and a huge thing when it happened – normally, you had to learn the language the text was written in (i.e. Hebrew in this case). Sort of like Muslim Indonesians reciting verses from the Qu’ran in classical Arabic; obviously a language which is a far cry from those of Indonesia. There are places in the modern world where ecclesiastical diglossia is still very much alive.
Hi Hi Pierre
I always thank God for healings. I am glad that you got healed. Did you get healed at the same church ? Was the speaking in tongues at the same time you were healed or some time apart ? Why did you want to speak in tongues ? What was your reason for wanting to speak in tongues ?
Let’s put our discussion in prospect. We were discussing the SIGN GIFTS that were given as a sign to the unbelieving Jews.
God healed and did miracles in the O.T. God caused wombs to be opened and the 10 plagues. I believe that God heals and does miracles today.
But just like there are no apostles today. Why because to be an apostle they had to be an eye witness. 1 John1:9 That which was from the beginning, …which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
The bible said tongues would cease. Then the question should be when did they cease ? We already discussed that tounges, prophecy and knowledge would stop. Then Faith, Hope and Love would remain. So we know Faith is the things we hope for and the evidence of things not seen. So what does this mean ? We still have faith and believe that God sent his Son Jesus and that he is our Lord and Saviour. Our Faith and Hope will also CEASE when Jesus returns. Now what will be left at his return ? Only LOVE as God is LOVE and it remains forever.
I have also seen many, miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation.
If you visit or read about false religions, their guru and believers also see miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation. So does it mean that these are from our God Jesus Christ ? and all these million of non believers have NO CLUE ?
We must both be very careful on what we have or not experienced or the way we interpret scripture. We must remember we live by faith NOT by experiences, feelings or emotions they all can be very misleading.
Yes I am saying that hundreds of thousands of christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong. There are I believe 45 million Christians that speak in tongues. If there are millions of hindus and satan worshiper and experience what christians are experiencing, should we accept their religion as the Way to god ? I do not think so.
How many in Noah days were saved ? In Jesus days what was the church leaders doing ? Thousands of believers but they crusified Christ. Yes not the Romans but the christians.
NOW JUST ANSWERING YOUR NEXT PARAGRAPH
You actually telling God that according to your interpretation these things ceased many years ago when He clearly states in scripture that this is for all His children.
PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT ALL THESE THINGS ARE FOR ALL HIS CHILDREN.
IN MY BIBLE IT SAYS THAT IT IS NOT FOR ALL. 1 Corinthians 12: 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
NO WERE NOT FOR EVERYONE EVEN IN THOSE DAYS.
You are suppose to win people for God….how exactly are you doing that?
WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF SALVATION ? ARE YOU NOT SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ? ARE WE NOT IN CHRIST ? WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN THEN WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AUTOMATICALLY. THERE NO SECOND FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
DO WE NEED MIRACLES SIGNS AND WONDERS FOR TO WIN SOULS. HOW MANY SIGNS AND WONDERS AND HEALINGS DID ISRAEL HAVE ? THEY EXPERIENCED THE VERY BEST BUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY GOT OUT OF EGYPT ? BACK TO WORSHIPING FALSE GODS ?
SALVATION IS THE PREACHING OF GODS WORD.
All I see is you insulting countless numbers of your brothers and sisters including the Triune God.
THE BIBLE SAYS BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT WANT TO HEAR IT SO YOU MAKE ME YOUR ENERMY.
You border on the blasphemy that Jesus is talking about in Mark 3:28-30.
BLASPHEMY OF THE Holy Spirit is UNBELIEVE that God sent his Son to take away our sins of the world.
If we do not believe on Christ finished work on the cross and His resurrection.
I will leave it there and pray for you so you get to see and experience everything you think does not exist one day.
THANK YOU PIERRE FOR YOUR TOUGHTS. I HOPE THROUGH THIS EXCERISE IT WILL MAKE US GO BACK AND READ THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT RELY ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS ON WHAT THE WORD SAYS.
ITS LIKE ADAM AND EVE EAT AN APPLE. DID THEY ? EVERYONE IS TAUGHT THAT EVEN FRON SUNDAY SCHOOL BUT IT IS WRONG.
HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK ? TWO OF EVERY KIND. WAS IT SO ? READ THAT PASSAGE AGAIN AND OU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK.
A LIE TOLD OVER AND OVER BECOMES THE TRUTH ?
Great speaking to you
Regards
MARIO
So if there is irrefutable proof of tongues, healing, miracles, conversion, God, Jesus, angels, demons, satan and everything else concerning God, then God could just have used angels to come preach to us and everyone would believe in Him. Do you believe what the Jews wrote in the old Testament? Start there. If you do not believe in God. How can anyone ever convince you that there is a language that His children speak that is the Holy Spirit speaking through them that only God understands? Or that His children can sometimes speak other earth languages that they could not speak before? And if I can prove to you that I am speaking another earth language I didn’t know, will you believe me or say I knew the language? Everyone keeps shouting for proof. If God wanted to proof anything He will send an angel to come explain it to you. Back to …do you believe what the jews wrote in the old testament….
We do believe the old Testament and the WHOLE of Gods Word.
We believe in Angels and that they did speak to humans and guess WHAT the people understood them and spoke back to the Angels in their own language, and guess WHAT. The angels understood them.
Why would the Holy Spirit want to speak through you to hget to God ? The holy Spirit speaks mysteries that can NOT BE UTTERED WHY IS TONGUE SPEAKERS UTTERING that which CAN NOT BE UTTERED.
The Jews, as a nation, began with signs (Rom. 4:11; Exo. 4:8, 9, 17, 28, 30; 7:3; 8:23; 10:1-2; 13:9; 31:13, 17; Deu. 4:34; 6:22).
The Old Testament Jews lived by signs (Deu. 11:18; Jos. 4:6; 1 Sam. 10:7; 2 Kgs. 19:29; Isa. 7:14; 38:7, 22; Ezk. 4:3; 20:12, 20).
The Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ (Mat. 12:38; 16:1-4; 24:3; Jhn. 2:18; 6:30).
The Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:22; Jhn. 4:48).
According to the Lord Jesus Christ, the gifts of tongues and healing are signs (Mar. 16:16-20).
These signs were for the purpose of confirming the word of God (Acts 14:3; Heb. 2:3-4).
These signs are spoken of in the past tense in 2 Corinthians 12:12 and in Hebrews 2:3-4, not in the present or future tense.
Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).
WE DO NOT NEED ANGLES TO COME SO WE CAN BELIEVE. WE BELIEVE GOD AND EVERYTHING IN GODS WORD.
Mark16:..Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…
Acts 2:4: ..They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. 5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.…
Acts 10:4-48: ..While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
2 Corinthians 12:12 doesn’t even mention tongues and sais nothing of future miracles and wonders.
1 Corinthians 12:9-12…Hebrews 2:3-4 … no idea how you come to the conclussion this means there is no tongues today…
1 Corinthians 12:10 …to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in various tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines.…
1 Corinthians 12: 27-29…Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?…
1 Corinthians 13:1-3…If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.…
1 Corinthians 14:1-3…Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort.…
1 Corinthians 14:25-27…and the secrets his of heart be will be revealed. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!” 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.…
So after all the above you gonna go with your 2 scriptures that do not even mention tongues.
Your quote “Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).
My quote “Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.” Telling the Holy Spirit what He is doing is not Him but some devil….Good luck when we get to judgment day……
Hi thanks for the reply. Please read carefully. JOHN 20:21-23 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
1 Corinthians 13: 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
LET’S START FROM VERSE
9 NOT 16 IT BRINGS MORE UNDERSTANDING
9 Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And when they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. 12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it to the rest, but THEY DID NOT BELIEVE them either. 14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and HE REBUKED THEIR UNBELIEVE and hardness of heart, because THEY DID NOT BELIEVE those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
WHO WAS JESUS SPEAKING TO IN VERSE 14 ? HIS APOSTLES.
WHO WERE THE UNBELIEVERS ?HIS APOSTLES
NOW IF HIS APOSTLES BELIEVE AS THEY DID NOT BELIEVE THEN THEY WOULD FROM VERSE 16
Mark16:..Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS TALKING TO EVERYONE AND NOT JUST THE APOSTLES BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBEVELIE THAT HE WAS RIASED FROM THE DEAD.
YOU STILL THINK TONGUES HAVE NOT CEASED AS PER SCRIPTURE. WHY ARE ALL THE SPEAKING PEOPLE NOT driving out demons; speaking in new tongues (MANY TONGUES). NOT A SINGLE HEAVENLY LANGUAGE); 18 pick up snakes, deadly poison,lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…
WHY ARE SO MANY CHRISTIANS AND NON CHRISTIANS SICK AND NOT HEALED. WHY ARE OUR HOSPITALS FULL.
Acts 2:4: ..They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them…..
2 Corinthians 12:12 doesn’t even mention tongues and says nothing of future miracles and wonders.
THE SIGNS OF AN APOSTLE WERE THE SIGN GIFTS 2 Corinth 12; 12 “Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.”
HERE AGAIN PASSED TENSE ?
Acts 10:4-48:
1 Corinthians 12:9-12…Hebrews 2:3-4 … no idea how you come to the conclussion this means there is no tongues today…
WAS PAUL NOT TALKING TO THE CORINTHIAN CHURCH WHY HE WAS REPREMANDING THEM. THEY WERE IN CAOS. THEY HAD THE GIFTS BUT THE QUESTION “ARE THE GIFTS FOR TODAY?”
1 CORINTHIANS 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are PROPHECIES they will FAIL; whether there are TONGUES, they will CEASE; whether there is KNOWLEDGE , it will VANISH AWAY. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
WHY WOULD THESE SPECIFIC 3 CEASE TO EXIST ? WHY NOT ALL THE GIFTS EXCEPT LOVE ?
1 Corinthians 12:10 …to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of 1
Corinthians 12: 27-29…Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, and those with gifts of healing, helping, administration, and various tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?…
NOT ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES ?
1 Corinthians 13:1-3…If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.…
PAUL HYPOBOLIC SPEACH IF “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels” AND ALSO “if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains” CAN ANYONE ONE MOVE MOUNTAINS WITH THEIR FAITH ? NO.
CAN ANYONE SPEAK ANGEL LANGUAGE IF THERE IS ONE ? NO
ANGELS ALWAYS SPOKE IN EVERYONES MOTHER LANGUAGE AND THEY ALL SPOKE BACK TO THEM IN THERE OWN LANGUAGE.
WHY SPEAK IN A “HEAVENLY LANGUAGE” SO SATAN CAN NOT UNDERSTAND? IF IT MUST BE INTERPRETED IN THE CHURCH ? NO MORE SECRETS THEN ?
WHY DID JESUS TEACH US THE LORDS PRAY ? SATAN CAN HEAR US ?
1 Corinthians 14:1-3…
Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort.…
1 Corinthians 14:25-27…and the secrets his of heart be will be revealed. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!” 26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret.…
So after all the above you gonna go with your 2 scriptures that do not even mention tongues.
ALL THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE CORRECT TONGUES WAS A TRUE SIGN GIFT. NOW WHO WERE THE SIGN GIFTS FOR ? THE UNBELIEVERS AND THEN AS I MENTIONED SCRIPTURE ABOVE TONGUES ECT SHALL CEASE. NO ONE IS DISPUTING TONGUES EXISTED BUT THEY CEASED. WHEN THEY CEASED WHAT GIFTS WERE LEFT ?
FAITH – HOPE – LOVE
1CORINTHIANS 13:13 And now abide FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
LOOK AT 2 corith 12:12 ” Truly the signs of an apostle WERE accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
ALREADY IN THE PAST TENSE.
HEB 2;3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
THE TWO SCRIPTURES ALREADY SPEAKING IN THE PAST TENSE (WERE). NOT IN THE PRESENT OR FUTURE TENSE ?
Your quote “Those who still look for signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground for the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Ths. 2:8-12).
I AM JUST QUOTING SCRIPTURE. AN ADUALTEROUS AND WICKET GENERATION SEEKS SIGNS.
My quote “Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.” Telling the Holy Spirit what He is doing is not Him but some devil….Good luck when we get to judgment day……
CAN WE NOT CHANGE YOUR THINKING TO
” TELLING THE HOLY SPIRIT WHAT SOME DEVIL IS DOING IS FROM HIM.
IF ALL DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES AND PEOPLE ARE BEING TAUGHT HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES. ARE THESE PEOPLE NOT TELLING THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT HE IS NOT DOING HIS WORK PROPERLY ?
Good luck when we get to judgment day……
I WOULD NOT SAY THIS TO YOU. BUT I PRAY FOR YOU TO READ AND UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES. COLOSSIANS 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
HOW DO WE KNOW THE SIGN GIFTS WERE CEASING ? JUST LOOK AT THE END OF PAULS MINISTARY. STUDY ALL HIS HEALINGS.
BUT AT THE END OF HIS MINISTERY HE COULD NOT HEAL HIMSELF (2 Corinth 12;5-10). HE COULD NOT HEAL TROPHIMUS (2 Tim 4;20). HE COULD NOT HEAL TIMOTHY (1 Tim 5:23).
WHY IS TONGUES NOT MENTIONED AS A SPIRITUAL GIFT AFTER THE BOOK OF 2 CORINTHIANS ?
Ephesians 4:8-12 AND Romans 12; 6-8.
SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE THAT GOD HAS instucted one to Pray, Preach, Sing or praise God IN TONGUES ??
Hallo Mario. We can keep quoting scripture to each other all year long. We obvious do not interpret it the same way. I have been healed from arthritus which is hereditary in our family. I was prayed for in my church and received tongues. I have been a christian for 30 years and have seen many, many miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation. So you gonna tell me, I and all these christians have no clue. Good luck bud.
Be very carefull when you have not experienced these things to take on what the Holy Spirit does and do not do by the way you interpret scripture. You are saying that hundreds of thousands of christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong. You actually telling God that according to your interpretation these things ceased many years ago when He clearly states in scripture that this is for all His children.
You are suppose to win people for God….how exactly are you doing that?
All I see is you insulting countless numbers of your brothers and sisters including the Triune God.
You border on the blasphemy that Jesus is talking about in Mark 3:28-30.
I will leave it there and pray for you so you get to see and experience everything you think does not exist one day.
Regards
Pierre
Hi Hi Pierre
I always thank God for healings. I am glad that you got healed. Did you get healed at the same church ? Was the speaking in tongues at the same time you were healed or some time apart ? Why did you want to speak in tongues ? What was your reason for wanting to speak in tongues ?
Let’s put our discussion in prospect. We were discussing the SIGN GIFTS that were given as a sign to the unbelieving Jews.
God healed and did miracles in the O.T. God caused wombs to be opened and the 10 plagues. I believe that God heals and does miracles today.
But just like there are no apostles today. Why because to be an apostle they had to be an eye witness. 1 John1:9 That which was from the beginning, …which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
The bible said tongues would cease. Then the question should be when did they cease ? We already discussed that tounges, prophecy and knowledge would stop. Then Faith, Hope and Love would remain. So we know Faith is the things we hope for and the evidence of things not seen. So what does this mean ? We still have faith and believe that God sent his Son Jesus and that he is our Lord and Saviour. Our Faith and Hope will also CEASE when Jesus returns. Now what will be left at his return ? Only LOVE as God is LOVE and it remains forever.
I have also seen many, miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation.
If you visit or read about false religions, their guru and believers also see miracles, healings, prophesies, speaking in tongues and interpretation. So does it mean that these are from our God Jesus Christ ? and all these million of non believers have NO CLUE ?
We must both be very careful on what we have or not experienced or the way we interpret scripture. We must remember we live by faith NOT by experiences, feelings or emotions they all can be very misleading.
Yes I am saying that hundreds of thousands of christians that can do and have experienced these things are wrong. There are I believe 45 million Christians that speak in tongues. If there are millions of hindus and satan worshiper and experience what christians are experiencing, should we accept their religion as the Way to god ? I do not think so.
How many in Noah days were saved ? In Jesus days what was the church leaders doing ? Thousands of believers but they crusified Christ. Yes not the Romans but the christians.
NOW JUST ANSWERING YOUR NEXT PARAGRAPH
You actually telling God that according to your interpretation these things ceased many years ago when He clearly states in scripture that this is for all His children.
PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT ALL THESE THINGS ARE FOR ALL HIS CHILDREN.
IN MY BIBLE IT SAYS THAT IT IS NOT FOR ALL. 1 Corinthians 12: 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
NO WERE NOT FOR EVERYONE EVEN IN THOSE DAYS.
You are suppose to win people for God….how exactly are you doing that?
WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF SALVATION ? ARE YOU NOT SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ? ARE WE NOT IN CHRIST ? WHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN THEN WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT AUTOMATICALLY. THERE NO SECOND FILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
DO WE NEED MIRACLES SIGNS AND WONDERS FOR TO WIN SOULS. HOW MANY SIGNS AND WONDERS AND HEALINGS DID ISRAEL HAVE ? THEY EXPERIENCED THE VERY BEST BUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY GOT OUT OF EGYPT ? BACK TO WORSHIPING FALSE GODS ?
SALVATION IS THE PREACHING OF GODS WORD.
All I see is you insulting countless numbers of your brothers and sisters including the Triune God.
THE BIBLE SAYS BECAUSE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH YOU DO NOT WANT TO HEAR IT SO YOU MAKE ME YOUR ENERMY.
You border on the blasphemy that Jesus is talking about in Mark 3:28-30.
BLASPHEMY OF THE Holy Spirit is UNBELIEVE that God sent his Son to take away our sins of the world.
If we do not believe on Christ finished work on the cross and His resurrection.
I will leave it there and pray for you so you get to see and experience everything you think does not exist one day.
THANK YOU PIERRE FOR YOUR TOUGHTS. I HOPE THROUGH THIS EXCERISE IT WILL MAKE US GO BACK AND READ THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT RELY ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS ON WHAT THE WORD SAYS.
ITS LIKE ADAM AND EVE EAT AN APPLE. DID THEY ? EVERYONE IS TAUGHT THAT EVEN FRON SUNDAY SCHOOL BUT IT IS WRONG.
HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK ? TWO OF EVERY KIND. WAS IT SO ? READ THAT PASSAGE AGAIN AND OU WILL BE SURPRISED HOW MANY ANIMALS WENT INTO THE ARK.
A LIE TOLD OVER AND OVER BECOMES THE TRUTH ?
Great speaking to you
Regards
Mario
One of my morning readings. Should we be Doing things that we do not know what we are saying, believing, doing and allowing into us ? That’s why the bible says seek knowledge and understanding ?
1 Samuel 28:14-20
(14) So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. (15) Now Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ And Saul answered, ‘I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.’ (16) Then Samuel said: ‘So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? (17) And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. (18) Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. (19) Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.” (20) Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.
New King James Version Change your email Bible version
The internal evidence from the narrative reveals a number of significant details to conclude that the spirit the medium saw was not Samuel but a demon impersonating him. One of the most obvious clues is that the text tells the reader outright—twice!—that the Lord would not answer Saul (I Samuel 28:6, 15-16), and there is no way that God would answer him through a lying spirit during an abominable séance! One of the points of the story is to show what desperate people will do when they are cut off from God, in fear for their lives, and without hope.
Yet, this does not mean that the demon does not give Saul a truthful answer. Acting as if it were Samuel, the demon wounds the king with the cruelest words it can use, complaining about being disturbed in his rest, mocking Saul for seeking him, and rubbing it in that God had left him and become his enemy. It reminds him of one of Samuel’s prophecies—given when Saul had disobeyed God’s instruction about the punishment of Amalek and its king, Agag (see I Samuel 15)—foretelling that the kingdom would be torn from him and given to another, David (I Samuel 15:23, 26-28). Finally, it predicts that both he and his sons would die in the next day’s battle against the Philistines, a reasonable assumption considering how overmatched Saul’s forces were.
The demon’s words have the desired effect: “Immediately, Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night” (I Samuel 28:20). Playing on Saul’s fears and weakness, the demon succeeds in bringing the big man low, destroying any remnant of hope. Later, after finally eating and resting (verses 21-25), he leaves the medium’s house a completely broken man.
So, what happened at En Dor?
1. At the end of his rope and highly susceptible to suggestion, Saul was ready to clutch at any straw of hope for a better outcome.
2. The medium was a fraud, bilking people of their money by preying on their superstitions. The spirit’s appearance shocked her.
3. At most God allowed a demon to impersonate Samuel and pronounce Saul’s doom to him, to give him the truth from the only source he had ever trusted to speak straight to him.
In the end, the story of Saul and the medium at En Dor is a morality play of sorts, an object lesson to teach how dangerous it is to forsake God and turn to the counsels of demons through sorcery and divination. It is a path of fear, despair, lies, curses, and death. It records the sad and tragic end of a man who had shown such great potential but who had allowed jealousy and pride to bring him and his house to ruin.
— Richard T. Ritenbaugh